A commentator has recently drawn my attention to
the prophecies of Sr. Jeanne le Royer (who took the religious name of
"Sister of the Nativity"), a French nun who received a series of
apocalyptic visions in the 18th century. Sr. le Royer's visions were recorded
in the 1817 book Vie et Révélations de Sœur de la Nativité (The Life and
Revelations of the Sister of the Nativity), by Charles Genet. Her
prophecies correspond quite closely with many of the hypotheses I forward in my
book Unveiling the Apocalypse - which is quite remarkable,
given the fact that my theories on this subject were not in any way influenced
by this particular source.
Sr. le Royer's prophecies mention mountains
"cracking and splitting" after a series of great earthquakes, which
she states will take place just before the coming of the Antichrist. As anyone
who has read the book will know, in Unveiling
the Apocalypse I argued that the
rise of the Antichrist will take place following the total economic collapse of
America, which I believe will happen as a result of the greatest natural
disaster in human history. If the East Coast of the Americas is devastated by
the mega-tsunami event generated by the
lateral collapse of the volcano Cumbre Vieja in the Canary Islands (an event
which will fulfill the "great mountain, burning with fire" being
thrown into the sea in Rev 8:8), this unprecedented disaster would ensure the total
economic collapse of the entire United States. This event would then leave a
political vacuum that will provide the perfect opportunity for the rise of the
Son of Perdition to world dominance. In turn, I argue that
the repercussions of this catastrophe will inevitably lead to the
battle of Armageddon, when the world will be destroyed by fire "falling
from the sky" (as was warned by Our Lady of Akita).
If we study the prophecies below, we can see
that series of events depicted in the Sister of the Nativity's visions
corresponds exactly with the hypothesis I forward in the book:
“…I see in God that a long time before the rise
of Antichrist the world will be afflicted with many bloody wars. Peoples will
rise up against peoples and nations will rise against nations sometimes allied,
sometimes enemies in their fight against the same party. Armies will
come into frightful collisions and will fill the earth with murder and
carnage….”
“…These infernal and foreign wars will cause
enormous sacrifices, profanations, scandals and infinite evils, because of the
incursions that will have been made into the Church…”
“…As well as that I can see that the earth will
be shaken in different places by frightful earthquakes. I see whole mountains
cracking and splitting with a terrible din. Only too happy will one be if one
can escape with no more than a fight but no I see come out of these gaping
mountains whirlwinds of smoke, fire, sulphur and tar which reduce to sinders
entire towns. All this and a thousand other disasters must come before the man
of Sin (antichrist)…”
According to Sr. Jeanne le Royer, some time before the coming of the
Antichrist, the world will experience the "nations rising against
nations" foretold by Christ in His eschatological discourse on Mt. Olivet
(which I argue relates to world wars of the 20th century). After this, she sees
the earth being shaken by a series of earthquakes which cause "whole
mountains" to crack and split. In the book, I theorize that the eruption
of Cumbre Vieja in the Canary Islands is directly related to the eschatological
earthquake which devastates Jerusalem during the Second Coming of Christ. This
earthquake is described in the Book of Revelation as the greatest earthquake in
human history - which takes place just before God punishes "Babylon
the Great":
"And there were flashes of lightning, rumblings, peals of thunder, and a great earthquake such as there had never been since man was on the earth, so great was that earthquake. The great city was split into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell, and God remembered Babylon the great, to make her drain the cup of the wine of the fury of his wrath."
(Rev 16:18-19)
The Book of Jeremiah tells us that this punishment will be brought about by the casting down of a "burning mountain", after which, "Babylon" is engulfed by huge tidal waves:
“Behold, I am against you, O destroying mountain, declares the LORD, which destroys the whole earth; I will stretch out my hand against you, and roll you down from the crags, and make you a burnt mountain"....
"How Babylon is taken, the praise of the whole earth seized! How Babylon has become a horror among the nations! The sea has come up on Babylon; she is covered with its tumultuous waves. Her cities have become a horror, a land of drought and a desert, a land in which no one dwells, and through which no son of man passes"...
"A voice! A cry from Babylon! The noise of great destruction from the land of the Chaldeans! For the LORD is laying Babylon waste and stilling her mighty voice. Their waves roar like many waters; the noise of their voice is raised, for a destroyer has come upon her, upon Babylon"...
"When you finish reading this book, tie a stone to it and cast it into the midst of the Euphrates, and say, ‘Thus shall Babylon sink, to rise no more, because of the disaster that I am bringing upon her, and they shall become exhausted."
(Jer 51:25, 41-43, 54-56, 63-64)
"Then a mighty angel took up a stone like a great millstone and threw it into the sea, saying, “So will Babylon the great city be thrown down with violence, and will be found no more"...
(Rev 18:21)
"The second angel blew his trumpet, and something like a great mountain, burning with fire, was thrown into the sea, and a third of the sea became blood".
(Rev 8:8)
In the book, I theorize that if the world's greatest earthquake took place in Jerusalem, as is predicted in the Apocalypse, this would almost certainly lead to an increase of volcanic activity across the North African tectonic plate, which in turn, could ultimately lead to a devastating eruption of Cumbre Vieja. This would then explain how "Babylon" is to be punished after the greatest earthquake in human history, as is described in Rev 16:18-19. So the sequence of events given in the prophecies of Sr. le Royer fits in perfectly with timeline of events I attempt to detail in Unveiling the Apocalypse.
Rather interestingly, the Sister of the Nativity's prophecies appear to
be related to the first decades of the 21st century:
“…One day I found myself in a vast plain alone with God. Jesus appeared to me and from the top of a small hill showing me a beautiful sun in the horizon. He said dolefully: “the world is passing away and the time of my coming draws near. When the sun is about to set one knows that the day is nearly over and that night will soon fall. Centuries are like days for me. Look at this sun; see how much it still has to travel and estimate the time that is left in the world.“ I looked intently and it seemed to me that the sun would set in about 2 hours. Jesus said “Do not forget that those are not millenaries but only centuries and they are few in number” But I understood that Jesus reserved to Himself the knowledge of the exact number and I did not wish to ask him more. It sufficed me to know the peace of the church and the restoration of the discipline were to last a reasonably long time…”
Writing towards the end of the 18th century, Sr. le Royer was told that the "sun would set in about 2 hours", and that these hours represented centuries - placing the significance of her prophecies as relating to sometime around the turn of the millennium. Yet before this "setting of the sun", when the world will pass away, Sr. le Royer was shown that the Church would be restored during an age of peace which would last "a reasonably long time". Given that her prophecies are centred around the turn of the millennium, it seems that the age of peace given to the world before the coming of the Antichrist is related to this exact time period.
The above prophecies of Sr. Jeanne le Royer are fairly well known,
having been cited in the books Catholic Prophecy by Yves
Dupont, The Prophets and Our Times, by Rev. Gerard Fulton and Desmond Birch's Trial, Tribulation & Triumph. But
there is another lesser known prophecy of the Sister of the Nativity which
dates the significance of her prophesied events even more specifically to the
second decade of the 21st century:
"Woe ! Woe ! Woe to the last century !
Here is what God wanted to show me in his Light. I began looking in the
light of God, the century which must begin in 1800; I saw by this light
that judgement wasn't there, and that it wouldn't be the last century. I
considered, thanks to the same light, the century of 1900, until the end,
to see positively if it would be the last. Our Lord made me know, and at the
same time made me doubt, if it would be at the end of the century of 1900,
or in that of 2000. But what I saw, it is that if the judgment arrived in
the century of 1900, it would come only towards the end, and that if the
world exceeds this century, the one of 2000 will
not pass without the judgment intervening, as I saw it in the light of God."
(Vie et Révélations de Sœur de la Nativité, Charles Genet,
book IV, pp. 125-126)
Here, Sr. le Royer tells us that a judgment she was shown in "the light of God" would take place before the 21st century had passed. But what could this particular judgment refer to? The fact that the visionary was shown a judgment taking place in "the light of God" sounds remarkably similar to the words of the Third Secret of Fatima:
the
Angel cried out in a loud voice: ‘Penance, Penance, Penance!'.
And we saw in an immense light that is God: ‘something similar
to how people
appear in a mirror when they pass in front of it' a Bishop
dressed in White
‘we had the impression that it was the Holy Father'. Other
Bishops, Priests,
men and women Religious going up a steep mountain, at the
top of which there
was a big Cross of rough-hewn trunks as of a cork-tree
with the bark"...
|
In the Third Secret of Fatima, the Shepherd Children were also shown a judgment taking place in "an immense light that is God" - in the form of the final Passover of the Church, which will take place during the persecution of the Antichrist. But the children were additionally shown that this light was "something similar to how people appear in a mirror when they pass in front of it". As we will discuss in some more detail in a future post, the great mirror-like "light" shown to the Shepherd Children of Fatima (which takes place just before the final Passover of the Church) is related to the appearance of the Great Sign foretold by St. Faustina and Our Lady of Akita, which many commentators believe is directly related to the prophecy of the Illumination of Consciences - when people will see the state of their souls reflected back at them as if shown in a mirror. It seems that the appearance of the Great Sign (which will possibly be something like a spectacular cross-shaped supernova) will cause people to deeply reflect and examine the state of their consciences, and will help to fully establish the Second Pentecost. In the Third Secret, the appearance of the mirror-like "immense light that is God" takes place in direct response to the Angel's threefold call for penance before the earth is struck by the flaming sword. This call for repentance will be met with the arrival of the Second Pentecost, when Our Lady will intervene to quench the flames that threaten to consume the planet through the triumph of her Immaculate Heart.
Is it possible then that the "judgment"
seen by Sr. le Royer taking place in the light of God is one and the same as
immense light seen by the Shepherd Children of Fatima? If so, then the arrival
of this event is dated by the Sister of the Nativity to occur before the close
of this very decade - which is yet
another remarkable convergence on this particular time period.
One last striking parallel of the prophecies of Sr.
Jeanne le Royer with the theories I present in Unveiling
the Apocalypse is the nature of
the relationship between the Two Witnesses and the martyr-pope seen by various
Catholic visionaries.
“…Antichrist will kill the Pope, probably by crucifixion. As a child of ten he will know more than anyone else in the world and when he is thirty he will begin his real work. Fifteen days after the ascension of Enoch and Eli as into Heaven, terrible catastrophes will come upon the earth: most severe earthquakes, tidal waves inundating much of the earth's surface, culminating in a thick darkness over the entire earth. “
Here, Sr. le Royer foretells the martyrdom of a pope under the auspices of the Antichrist - which appears to deliberately echo the deaths of the Two Witnesses by the Beast that rises from the bottomless pit:
And when they have finished their testimony, the beast that rises from the bottomless pit will make war on them and conquer them and kill them, and their dead bodies will lie in the street of the great city that symbolically is called Sodom and Egypt, where their Lord was crucified.
(Rev 11:7-8)
The mention of the pope being "crucified" is a symbolic link to the martyrdom of the first pope, St. Peter, and also further ties into the Third Secret, where the "bishop dressed in white" embarks on his own via dolorosa, before being martyred at the foot of the Cross in Jerusalem. Sr. le Royer then turns from mentioning the assassination of a pope under the Antichrist to describe the ascension of "Enoch" and "Eli" (Elijah), which further suggests that the identity of one of the Two Witnesses is a Roman Catholic Pontiff. After the martyrdom and ascension of the Two Witnesses in the vision of Sr. le Royer, she is shown "tidal waves inundating much of the earth's surface", which would again tie in with my mega-tsunami hypothesis. In this scenario, the "thick darkness" enveloping the earth would most likely be due to a massive volcanic eruption (i.e. at La Palma in the Canary Islands). This would then correspond with my theory that the "huge mountain, burning with fire" being thrown into the sea takes place in response to the martyrdom of the Two Witnesses. The water turning to blood after the burning mountain is thrown into the sea recalls the ministry of Moses and the plagues of Egypt - which may also have been caused by a volcanic eruption (see the earlier post The Santorini Eruption and the Apocalyptic Plagues of Egypt).
The Book of Zechariah tells us that a "great mountain" is
thrown down by Zerubbabel - who is used by the Book of Revelation to
represent one of the Two Witnesses:
Who are you, O great mountain? Before Zerubbabel you shall become a plain.
(Zech 4:7)
In addition to this, the Apocalypse describes a great earthquake taking place in Jerusalem after the ascension of the Two Witnesses into heaven:
But after the three and a half days a breath of life from God entered them, and they stood up on their feet, and great fear fell on those who saw them. Then they heard a loud voice from heaven saying to them, “Come up here!” And they went up to heaven in a cloud, and their enemies watched them. And at that hour there was a great earthquake, and a tenth of the city fell. Seven thousand people were killed in the earthquake, and the rest were terrified and gave glory to the God of heaven.
(Rev 11:11-13)
This earthquake, centred on the Holy City of Jerusalem (the place the
Lord was crucified), is the same as the eschatological earthquake which splits
the "great city" into three parts in Rev 16:18 - after which God
punishes Babylon the Great. The Book of Zechariah tells us that this great
earthquake, which splits apart the Holy City, will take place during the Second Coming of Christ:
Behold, a day is coming for the LORD, when the spoil taken from you will
be divided in your midst. For I will gather all the nations against Jerusalem
to battle, and the city shall be taken and the houses plundered and the women
raped. Half of the city shall go out into exile, but the rest of the people
shall not be cut off from the city. Then the LORD will go out and fight against
those nations as when he fights on a day of battle. On that day his feet shall
stand on the Mount of Olives that lies before Jerusalem on the east, and the
Mount of Olives shall be split in two from east to west by a very wide valley,
so that one half of the Mount shall move northward, and the other half
southward. And you shall flee to the valley of my mountains, for the valley of
the mountains shall reach to Azal. And you shall flee as you fled from the
earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah. Then the LORD my God will come,
and all the holy ones with him.
On that day there shall be no light, cold, or frost. And there shall be
a unique day, which is known to the LORD, neither day nor night, but at evening
time there shall be light.
(Zech 14:1-7)
In turn, the Book of Ezekiel states that after
this colossal earthquake in the land of Israel, mountains would be
thrown down and God will summon a sword against the end-time enemy referred to
as "Gog" during the battle of Armageddon. It is then that the realm
of Satan under his servant the Antichrist will be destroyed by fire falling
from the sky, as warned by Our Lady of Akita:
But on that day, the day that Gog shall come against the land of Israel,
declares the Lord GOD, my wrath will be roused in my anger. For in my jealousy
and in my blazing wrath I declare, On that day there shall be a great
earthquake in the land of Israel. The fish of the sea and the birds of the
heavens and the beasts of the field and all creeping things that creep on the
ground, and all the people who are on the face of the earth, shall quake at my
presence. And the mountains shall be thrown down, and the cliffs shall fall,
and every wall shall tumble to the ground. I will summon a sword against Gog on
all my mountains, declares the Lord GOD. Every man's sword will be against his
brother. With pestilence and bloodshed I will enter into judgment with him, and
I will rain upon him and his hordes and the many peoples who are with him
torrential rains and hailstones, fire and sulfur. So I will show my greatness
and my holiness and make myself known in the eyes of many nations. Then they
will know that I am the LORD.
(Ezek 38:18-23)
A selection of various prophecies of Sr. Jeanne le Royer can be found at the Catholic Revelations website here.
533 comments:
1 – 200 of 533 Newer› Newest»Hi Emmett,
Concerning the mountains this reminded me of something said in Kibeho, Rwanda.
1) The approved visionary Anathalie Mukamazimpaka told Michael Brown of Spiritdaily "I saw mountains crashing into each other, Stones coming out of the earth, nearly as if they were angry. I saw storms crashing against each other and fire coming from them. I don't know what this means. I was told that people are causing this and that it is coming."
Stephen
www.divinemercypopes.com
Thank you, Emmett, this is quite interesting.
In the link you gave, one prophecy says:
“I saw in the light of the lord that the faith and our Holy religion would become weaker in almost every Christian kingdom. God has permitted that they should be chastized by the wicked in order to awaken them from their apathy. And after the justice of God has been satisfied he will spread the faith and restore the discipline of the church in those countries where it had become tepid and lax…”
That certainly sounds like the great apostasy we have been living through. At Mass the other day someone offered a petition for the 83% of Catholics here who no longer go to Mass--only about 17% do go. A loss of 83% certainly qualifies as a great apostasy.
I'm still a little confused about the timeline of all this, but it agrees with other sources. For example, St Faustina said Jesus told her a spark would come out of Poland to prepare the world for his coming. Certainly that had to be John Paul.
Sr Royer's other prophecies speak about how the power of Satan will become great. Just last week, the legislature of Texas tried to pass a bill limiting abortions, and the opposition was extremely hateful and they were chanting "Hail, Satan." The devil is really extending his power.
Emmett,
This is absolutely amazing! What a thrilling post! Thank you so much!
I've read a lot from that Catholic Revelations website. The 2000 Prophecy is particularly interesting. I had never seen it before. That would bring us to 2020. Thank you for tying it all together, with the Third Secret and 2017. Things are getting interesting...
A few of her other Prophecies I find interesting (they all are really!), if I may:
"I saw in God's essence a numerous assembly of ministers of the church who like an army in battle and like a firm and unflinching column shall sustain the rights of the church and of her head and shall restore its ancient discipline.
I see in God a great power lead by the Holy Ghost which will restore order through a second upheaval. I see in God a large assembly of pastors who will uphold the rights of the church and of her head. They will restore the former disciplines. I see in particular, two servants of the lord who will distinguish themselves in this glorious struggle and who by the grace of the Holy Ghost, will fill with ardent zeal the hearts of the illustrious assembly…."
These are the young Priests of today, Emmett! These Priests are zealous, orthodox, traditional. They are on fire and want to preach the truth in it's fullness. I know many of them. Just look up Archbishop Alexander Sample (BTW he just got his Pallium!). It doesn't get any better than him. I found this one really interesting. Thank God for these young Priests and Bishops!
"All the false cults will be abolished; all the abuses of the Revolution will be destroyed and the altars of the true God restored. The former practices will be put into force again and our religion –at least in some respects -will flourish more than ever…."
Amazing! Think of the abuses in the Mass after Vatican II.. The traditions of the Church will come back! All of the beauty and splendor will return. That is so self-explanatory.
"The Holy Father is most unhappy; because of him the whole Church is in desolation.."
Pope Paul VI? I've asked people who lived through his Pontificate what he was like and they've told me he suffered and was unhappy. I don't know...
Anyway, just a couple of thoughts. Thank you so much for telling us about her Prophecies! You've given me so much to think about, Emmett.
What a treat on my 4th of July!
God bless and Happy Independence Day!
~Hannah
Very informative post, Emmett.
I know we have disagreed in the past on certain eschatological issues, but this was a very informative and enlightening post. Thank You.
What caught my attention were a few things:
First, the idea that Babylon will be destroyed by a Tsunami. I have always suspected that that was what Revelation was implying. However, I believe the "great mountain, burning with fire" might just as well be a devastating asteroid...and there sure have been a lot of near misses by asteroids of late.
Secondly, I wonder if the supernatural intervention that Sister Jeanne mention when she says, "the first two decades of the century of 2000 will not pass without the judgment intervening, as I saw it in the light of God" and the supernatural intervention shown to the Fatima seers in the Third Secret as taking place in "an immense light that is God", are in any way related to the Illumination of Conscience prophesied by certain Saints and Mystics down thru the centuries?
Great info Emmett.
I find it interesting that you put all this information about the imminent natural disasters about to strike America......... on July 4th.
And I live in NYC, so I hope you're wrong about that specific interpretation of prophecy! Though quite frankly, if America is judged I really don't see how NYC could escape judgment. I'll just have to pray and be ready if that time comes.
But the information about the first two decades of the 2000's is really interesting. That lines up with the Triumph of the Immaculate Heart possibly coming in 2017.
So within your hypothetical timeline, wouldn't the anti-Christ come right after the Triumph of Mary's Immaculate Heart? If so, then that would leave about 3 1/2 years for the anti-Christ afterwards, with the Final Judgment occurring sometime around 2020 or so? And of course the Bible seems to refer to a 3 1/2 year period in Daniel.
I think maybe you already answered my questions in the post. I'll go back and reread them and see again.
But this was a really really interesting post Emmett.
Hi Stephen,
Yes, Jamey pointed out the connection between this and the visions shown to Anathalie Mukamazimpaka by Our Lady of Kibeho. It does seem to be a vision of this same event, and is also very similar to the visions seen at the yet to be approved apparitions of Our Lady at Turzovka:
http://unveilingtheapocalypse.blogspot.co.uk/2012/01/apparitions-at-turzovka.html
Sr. Lorraine - Agreed, the timeline for all this can seem confusing, especially if you just read the prophecies of Sr. Jeanne le Royer alone. When you compare it with the timeline given in the Bible and the approved private revelations, the apostasy comes first, then the restoration under the Two Witnesses and a short era of peace (which according to La Salette would be no more than a few decades) before the Two Witnesses are killed by the Antichrist.
KP - I think this answers your question as well. So for example, if the triumph begins to bear fruit around 2017, and we begin to see some major conversions, healing of schism etc., there will be still some time before the Antichrist will emerge. According to Rev 11, the Two Witnesses must first finish bearing their testimony before they are killed.
Thanks Miltonic! I'll try to answer your comments later when I have more time...
Miltonic - A lot of people interpret this as an asteroid. I originally related the "great mountain, burning with fire" being thrown into the sea with Hiroshima and Nagasaki. As I was musing over this passage sometime around 2000-2001, the BBC documentary "Mega-tsunami: Wave of Destruction" was coincidentally aired, and I was convinced that this was a far better interpretation. When you look at the text in Jeremiah concerning the "burning mountain", which states "I will roll you down from the crags", this suggests more of a lateral volcanic collapse, rather than a mountain-like object being hurled into the sea from space. Besides, the ancients were familiar with falling stars, and given that the Apocalypse mentions falling stars on a regular enough basis, if St. John seen an asteroid falling into the sea, he would almost certainly have described it as a falling star, rather than a "burning mountain" - which etymologically speaking, is more closely related to a volcano. Many secular/preterist scholars believe that this writing was based on the eruption of Vesuvius in 79AD, and use this to argue a later dating of the Apocalypse.
Mountains being cast into the sea is a recurring motif in the apocalyptic literature of the Bible. When they are all viewed together in context, they quite clearly refer to a lateral volcanic collapse - which was most likely the original cause of the plagues of Egypt (after the massive eruption of Santorini/Thera). The below post attempts to group together all the biblical passages concerning this event:
http://unveilingtheapocalypse.blogspot.co.uk/2011/10/casting-down-of-mountains.html
BTW - I believe the "judgment" seen in the mirror-like light is almost certainly the Illumination of Consciences. It is spoken of as a judgment in miniture elsewhere...
Emmett,
Firstly, does the Comet from St. Hildegard's Prophecy fit into what you're saying? How far do you think we are from a catastrophic disaster such as this happening? I'm just curious...
Not to get off topic (you know me!), but Pope Francis consecrated the Vatican to St. Michael the Archangel with Benedict sitting beside him. Do you think this is significant?
I'm thinking of Pope Leo XIII and the St. Michael prayer. I hope it's reinstated and we all have to say it again after Mass. That would be something..
Also, I think the Pope is calling on the help of St. Michael to rid the Vatican of evil and corruption...
Your thoughts on this?
Thank you, Emmett.
God bless!
~Hannah
Just put together this afternoon so will put in several sections since there is so much and a lot relates to Blessed Elena Aiello’s visions and chiefly that the great chastisement of Akita is perhaps imminent as opposed to the end of the world:
“A link between this prophecy and the centenary of the apparitions of Our Lady of Fatima in 2017 seems obvious “
Indeed that is fascinating – especially in regard to the 2017 versus 2029 as possible chastisement on the Church leaders, faithful and world at large for failing to heed Heaven’s command to consecrate Russia to the Immaculate Heart. According to Sungenis and Salza, Pope Benedict himself sent Bishop Capucchi to Russia in 2006 to see if the Orthodox would be offended if he did the Consecration and they said they would so it wasn’t done. The same fate that could befall the leaders of the Church if they fail to do the consecration as that of the king of France who refused to consecrate his country to the Sacred Heart. So 2017 seems likely given this prophecy based on what Sr le Royer says.
Could the bishop executed in the Fatima vision be Pope Francis or a successor in the very near future if he/they don’t do the consecration (as the King of France didn’t) or even Emeritus Pope Benedict XVI himself who could be the bishop in white who “appeared like the pope in the city half in ruins” and may well still be alive in 2017. It is an odd thing to add “appeared like the pope” but they saw a bishop in white (only the Pope dresses in white) who perhaps wasn’t the pope. Indeed Benedict still dresses in white but is no longer pope. Some think it likely that the consecration will happen only in response to some horrific dire world circumstance given the politically correct orientation of the modern Church and more tellingly the lack of faith in general.
I am starting to think that the great fire falling from the sky as foretold at Akita would then not be the end of the world. Taken literally and chronologically it tells of survivors envying the dead and then a “great sign” consoling them the same great sign that will surely usher in the era of peace (after the emergency consecration is done).
“Fire will fall from the sky and will wipe out a great part of humanity, the good as well as the bad, sparing neither priests nor faithful. The survivors will find themselves so desolate that they will envy the dead. The only arms which will remain for you will be the Rosary and the Sign left by My Son.”
A great chunk of humanity is annihilated but there will be a huge conversion in the remainder given the sheer dread of what has happened and the miraculous sign which I agree as Emmett that it will be like a supernova cross in the sky. That message of Akita was 40 years ago and it is an extension of Fatima which began in 1917 where the Angel with the Flaming Sword appeared. As a result it is difficult to see this Akita/Fatima threat being extended for too much longer (eg 2050).
There is so much tension worldwide with political regimes appearing at times to support others that were/are enemies as Sr le Royer seems to allude. Indeed Akita is a warning to the present generation and previous which began with the sexual revolution of the sixties which ascended to such a level that a chastisement of Akita proportion is right and just. Sin is so great that a great chastisement is surely not decades but years away perhaps no later than 2017.
Russia who is getting more powerful, has EMP technology and likely the instrument of chastisement as foretold by Blessed Elena Aiello. We look at the conflict in Syria where the US and Russia are once again at loggerheads. One big bomb and all hell will break loose. The world is a powder keg at the moment and the confusion/disorientation by the presence of demons so great, things could happen very fast, things get unpredictable how things will proceed once one decent bomb is unleashed. Ultimately Blessed Elena Aiello envisions Russia will be the vehicle chosen to chastise the world. The following an article where John Salza thinks that an electro-magnetic pulse attack may be used by Russia as mentioned in the Akita chastisement:
http://www.remnantnewspaper.com/Archives/2013-0131-salza-fatima-chastisement.htm
With Blessed Aiello’s belief of Russia’s armies punishing the world it may be related to Putin harbouring a dislike of the USA linked to what happened to the USSR of which he admits nostalgia toward.
Also regarding major upcoming renewal Sr Aiello received the following vision on Good Friday 1961 her last:
“Oh, what a horrible vision I see! A great revolution is going on in Rome! They are entering the Vatican. The Pope is all alone; he is praying. They are holding the Pope. They take him by force. They knock him down to the floor. They are tying him. Oh, God! Oh God! They are kicking him. What a horrible scene! How dreadful!”
“Our Blessed Mother is drawing near. Like corpses those evil men fall down to the floor. Our Lady helps the Pope to his feet and, taking him by the arm, she covers him with her mantle saying: ‘Fear not!’
Does this appearance which annihilates the enemies of Christ coincide with the pope having just completed the consecration prayer?
She goes on to say:
“Flagstaffs (flying the Red flag over St. Peter’s dome and elsewhere) collapse, and power is gone out of the clubs of those evil brutes.”
The removal of a red flag over the Vatican and elsewhere, a red flag I think symbolic (related to the Fatima warning of Russia spreading her errors ultimately linked to the Jewish Freemasonic influence behind the Russian revolution and their infiltration into the Catholic Church in the 1960’s); and “elsewhere” since Russia has spread her errors where atheistic communism is reigning in various guises even in countries calling themselves “democratic”. So the red flags associated with the errors of Russia will be gone finally and this after the consecration as the demon/s behind it exorcised.
Once Russia is consecrated we will have a real era of peace and the chosen instrument of chastisement (spiritual and physical) on the world in the past 100 years and likely in the upcoming chastisement will paradoxically be a major part of the spiritual rejuvenation worldwide and the Orthodox will finally be reconciled with the Roman Catholic Church.
Finally on Good Friday 1950
Sister Elena Aiello asked Our Blessed Mother: “What will become of Italy? Will Rome be saved?”
“The Madonna answered:” ‘In part, by the Pope. The Church will be in travail, but the forces of Hell cannot prevail! You must suffer for the Pope and Christ, and thus Christ will be safe on earth; and the Pope, with his redemptive word, will, in part, save the world.’
Redemptive word will in part save the world – is the redemptive word in this case the Consecration of Russia?
Fatima, Russia and Akita, the triumph of the Immaculate Heart of Mary are determinately linked and revolve around the Consecration of Russia and it not being done until late and include: the bishop in white being killed; the effects of Russia spreading her errors; the 3rd secret being suppressed; the necessity of Akita to reveal broadly the 3rd secret; the great Chastisement and finally victory and an era of peace.
Hannah said: "Not to get off topic (you know me!)"
I think I well and truly trump you here Hannah :-) And what you say is certainly pertinent.
Hannah,
I don't think that the much cited prophecy concerning the comet is actually a prophecy of St. Hildegard of Bingen. Although St. Hildegard had a vast collection of writings, this particular prophecy doesn't seem to appear anywhere in her authentic literature. There are many prophecies attributed to saints, which don't actually emanate from the claimed source. It seems to be part of the genre of apocalyptic writings (e.g. the Book of Enoch most definitely wasn't written by the antediluvian prophet mentioned in the Book of Genesis). So I wouldn't lend too much credence to the alleged prophecy of St. Hildegard on the comet. The other authentic prophecies of St. Hildegard, referenced by Pope Benedict XVI are much more interesting.
Jamey - I always got the impression that the "sign left by my Son" mentioned by Our Lady of Akita preceded the Great Chastisement by fire. Taken in context, it sounds more like the consolation is a memory of an event which takes place before the Great Chastisement. If this is referring to the survivors of a nuclear war, then the memory of the "great sign" may indeed be their only consolation.
I keep forgetting to answer some important points the commentators make here. This is purely due to distraction and simple forgetfulness. I hope people don't get offended if I don't manage to answer a particular question, and they aren't bothered by asking again to remind me... I just get lost sometimes!
Hannah - It does seem to be significant that Pope Emeritus Benedict XVI appeared alongside Pope Francis for the blessing of a statue of St. Michael in the Vatican, doesn't it? I keep thinking that 100 years on from the start of WWI in 1914 is an important date as well as 1917. With the announcement of the canonization of popes John XXIII and John Paul II, on top of everything else in the last few months, the short papacy of Pope Francis is already taking great strides...
I'm afraid, Emmett, that you've given me another headache. Could you run down what you see as the potential sequence of events? I think that might help me sort things out.
the apostasy comes first, then the restoration under the Two Witnesses and a short era of peace (which according to La Salette would be no more than a few decades) before the Two Witnesses are killed by the Antichrist.
All of this before 2017, or does 2017 kick this off? Or does the pain begin before 2017, and the era of peace after that? Oh, and I thought we weren't supposed to believe in an era of peace.
Emmett,
Thank you. I didn't know. I thought the Prophecy was attributed to St. Hildegard.
It's amazing how events unfold these days. You can imagine my shock this morning at the news today. Every day always seems to bring something new from this Pope. Today was certainly eventful, with the Consecration of the Vatican to St. Michael AND St. Joseph (assuming St. Joseph is also significant, too? He was added to the Eucharistic prayers recently!), the release of the Encyclical Lumen Fidei and the approval of the Canonizations! I've always had a devotion to Bl. Pope John Paul II since I was received into the Church. He's very dear to me and to hear he will be a Saint of the Church fills me with joy.
Here are the some of the words of the Pope:
"Michael struggles to restore divine justice and defends the People of God from his enemies, above all by the enemy par excellence, the devil. And St. Michael wins because in him, there is He God who acts. This sculpture reminds us then that evil is overcome, the accuser is unmasked, his head crushed, because salvation was accomplished once and for all in the blood of Christ. Though the devil always tries to disfigure the face of the Archangel and that of humanity, God is stronger, it is His victory and His salvation that is offered to all men. We are not alone on the journey or in the trials of life, we are accompanied and supported by the Angels of God, who offer, so to speak, their wings to help us overcome so many dangers, in order to fly high compared to those realities that can weigh down our lives or drag us down. In consecrating Vatican City State to St. Michael the Archangel, I ask him to defend us from the evil one and banish him."
He surely wants to banish the Devil, doesn't he? What truly remarkable times we are living in, Emmett...
Jamey,
"I think I well and truly trump you here Hannah :-)"
Haha! We'll see about that! :)
Are you familiar with this article?
http://www.mysticsofthechurch.com/2011/09/blessed-elena-aiello-mystic-stigmatic.html
A couple of her Prophecies I find interesting:
"Numerous scandals are bringing souls to ruin particularly through the corruption of youth. Stirred up, and unrestrained in the enjoyment of the pleasures of the world, they have degraded their spirit in corruption and sin. The bad example of parents trains the family in scandal and infidelity, instead of virtue and prayer, which is almost dead on the lips of many. Stained and withered is the fountain of faith and sanctity the home."
Our Lady said this in 1954! Look at us today. Pray for us young people, Jamey. We need to be holy...we need to try...
"The Madonna then came closer, and with a sad expression, showed me the flames of Hell. She said: ‘Satan reigns and triumphs on earth! See how the souls are falling into Hell. See how high the flames are, and the souls who fall into them like flakes of snow, looking like transparent embers! How many sparks! How many cries of hate, and of despair! How much pain!’
See how many PRIESTLY souls! Look at the sign of their consecration in their transparent hands! (In the palms of their hands the sign of the cross, in more vivid fire, could clearly be seen!) What torture, my daughter, in my maternal Heart! Great is my sorrow to see that men do not change! The justice of the Father requires reparation — otherwise many will be lost!’
Priests need our prayers now more than ever. I always offer my prayers and sufferings on the behalf of the Clergy. They need us so much. They need US to pray for them so that they will have the strength to be holy. If we only knew how much the Devil attacks them...
"The Pope will suffer much, and all this suffering will be like an agony, which will shorten his earthly pilgrimage. His successor will guide the boat in the tempest."
This seems similar to St. John Bosco's dream doesn't it? Wow, Fatima, Akita and St. John Bosco are in there.
Anyway, just some thoughts..
God bless!
~Hannah
Jamey,
I believe the 1984 Consecration was accomplished. Sister Lucia herself confirmed this fact. The Consecration was only one-half of the Request at Fatima. The other half was the First Saturday Devotion. Everyone seems to forget the importance of the First Saturday Devotion, which carries as much weight as the Consecration.
Also, Fatima is but one approved apparition. There are others with additional requests. Take for instance the apparition of Our Lady of All Nations. She specifically Requested that the Holy Father solemnly define the Fifth Marian Dogma as a precondition for her Triumphant intercession.
Emmett,
This thread got me thinking of some of the prophecies of Pope Blessed Pius IX:
“We expect that the Immaculate Virgin and Mother of God, Mary, Through her most powerful intercession will bring it about that our holy mother, the catholic church after removal of all obstacles and overcoming of all errors will gain in influence from day to day among all nations and in all places, prosper and rule from ocean to ocean, from the great stream to the ends of the earth; that she will enjoy peace and liberty...that all erring souls will return to the path of truth and justice after the darkness of their minds has been dispelled, and that there will be then one fold and one shepherd...”
“Since the whole world is against God and His church it is evident that he has reserved the victory over His enemies to Himself. This will be more obvious when it is considered that the root of all our present evil is to be found in the fact that those with talents and vigour crave earthly pleasures, and not only desert God, but repudiate Him altogether; thus it appears they cannot be brought back to God in any way except through an act that cannot be ascribed to any secondary agency and thus all will be forced to look to the supernatural and cry out ‘From the Lord is this come to pass and is wonderful in our eyes’...There will come a great wonder which will fill the world with astonishment. This wonder will be preceded by the triumph of revolution. The church will suffer exceedingly. Her servants and her chieftain will be mocked, scourged and martyred…” 3
“The conclusion I draw from this is, that the Revolution must perish, and that it is the very sword of our enemies that will deliver us from its grasp. It will be slain by its want of principles, by its abuse of power, by the injustice of its proceedings, by the - breach of Porta Pia, by a host of causes I need not enumerate, especially to you, who, living in the city, are fully cognizant of all these facts…Let us hold this as certain, that the Revolution will be slain by its own arms, the very arms which it now wields against truth, against justice, against all that is holy and sacred on this Earth. But when and how will it perish? Domius Deus Israel, respice. God knows it. …We must imitate Judith, prostrating ourselves before God, and imploring him to aid us by his grace and power, to grant us the consolation we need, and crown the fond hopes of our heart. We must pray with fervor and with faith; we must pray without intermission; and the suicide of the Revolution will come to pass when we least expect it….As of yore God promised ancient Jerusalem, he has also promised to the modern Jerusalem, this city of Rome, which belongs to him, that, after justice shall have performed its course, he will again appear amongst us in all the splendor of his mercy. These are the prayers I offer today, not for myself, — for I have but a short time to live, — but I offer them for the Church, for you, for so many millions of souls, spread over the whole face of the Earth, having the same faith and hope, and firmly united with me in their eager desire that these prayers may be realized...Now I bless you in your persons, in your families, and in your business; but receive a special benediction, by which I beseech Heaven to grant you new courage, and a firm confidence that you will one day be able to pay your respects to me, in a manner suited to your rank as honorable soldiers, Christian-warriors; that you can present yourselves before me clothed in your uniforms, and armed with the sword, which constitutes your glory, and which in your hands would be employed to re-establish peace and maintain the rights of law and order. Benedicto Dei, etc."
Emmett,
I'm hoping you can clarify a few things for me about your analysis of the endtimes time line and Sr. Jeanne's prophecy.
" When you compare it with the timeline given in the Bible and the approved private revelations, the apostasy comes first, then the restoration under the Two Witnesses and a short era of peace (which according to La Salette would be no more than a few decades) before the Two Witnesses are killed by the Antichrist."
I just can't quite get my brain around this.It sounds like the two witnesses survive the apostasy, the era peace and live all the way through the time of the AntiChrist who will kill them and them Christ will return. Am I getting that right?
Timewise that means that Pope Francis who is 76 now is going to be alive when the Antichrist comes. But first we have to have the "restoration" which I'm assuming comes after the Chastisement...and the great warning or "mirror" or advisio or sign in the sky or whatever one wants to call it.
That hasn't even happened yet.
So, let's say that happens around 2017. So, that makes Pope Francis 90 years old.
OK--now we have to have the restoration of the Church--the era of peace. If it only lasts 10 years, Pope Francis will be 100 years old towards the end of that time when the Antichrist comes to power. And I'm being conservative in projecting the "era of peace". Could be 15 years or 20 years--we don't know. Do you really think Pope Francis is going to be alive for that long? That would make him alive and vibrant at least 100 years old. And then somewhere along the line the Great Monarch has to show up. It all just doesn't seem plausable to me--the amount of time this takes place and still to have Pope Francis be the pope at the helm of the Church in his extremely old age when he is martyred.
I'm not being critical here, I just need some more detail on this.
Also, I came across a one page critique by Colin Donovan on EWTN on the endtimes. I know he's one of the theologans on that networks and he's learned in what he writes.
Here's the link:
http://www.ewtn.com/expert/answers/endtimes.htm
His timeling seems plausable to me. I'm wondering if you could first answer my musings above and then tell me what you think of his timeline for the second coming of Christ.
Thank you.
rose
miltonic, did you not notice that your quote says "he will again appear amongst us in all the splendor of his mercy."
Sounds like he's talking about the Second Coming. Not a 1,000 year semi-Golden Age.
We look forward to Christ's Second Coming. Not a semi-Golden Age on Earth.
p.s.
Emmett,
Math was never my best subject. In four years (2017)Pope Francis will be 80 not 90 as I previously wrote.
But,after the chastisement the theoretical number of 10 years for the era of peach ends and he will be 90,(2027) and in 15 years (2032)he'll be 95 and in 2037 100 years --the farthest projection we can make for the era of peace. And while these numbers are really educated guesses--he's still going to very old if he lives that long.
I still find it very hard to believe that at that age he'll be able to fufill his duties as pope or that he will still be alive.
thanks,
rose
So you are saying if I am understanding you correctly, that the Anti-Christ is now alive, and most likely will show up at 30 years of age in 2017? I thought there had to be a 7 year period - the first 3.5 yrs for buildup of power, and the last 3.5 for destruction. That means if 2017 is the mid point, then 2013 is when he has to show. I find that hard to believe, to tell you the truth.
Miltonic the consecration being done isn't fact. It is a fact that Russia wasn't consecrated to the Immaculate Heart of Mary in unison with the bishops of the world. The letters from 1989 onward contradict statements Sr Lucia herself made until 1987 one of which was published by journalist Enrico Romero.
Also the letters written by "Lucia" that the consecration had been done from 1989 onward where typed on an IBM computer something that her convent didn't have. An expert accredited by courts in Canada said the letters signature also is a forgery when compared to that of her memoirs. It is likely the Vatican didn't want to offend Russia and wanted to silence the "conspiracy theorists", it isnt the first time in recent decades the Vatican has hidden something. We also have to consider why was Sr Lucia locked away from the world almost a prisoner until she died. Then we have the comedy hour of Cardinal Bertone handling the saga.
Emmett, I thought the martyrdom of a pope would bring about the Second Pentecost - once again the Church being renewed by the blood of its faithful? Do you think our Church will start preaching and convert the world by this instead? I think this unlikely, a martyrdom or more likely a chastisement will be the key to the world converting, as suffering usually achieves this.
I will respond later regarding a great chastisement coming first before a renewal.
...............................
Hannah I have seen that link cheers. Catholic Family News have a brilliant and hair raising audio presentation of her miraculous life for $5 based on Msgr Francesco Spadafora's book, highly recommended.
God Bless.
Jamey,
Could Pope Francis be martyred in 2017 for not consecrating Russia? Seems extreme. I know Jesus said that the same fate would befall him as the King of France. But, we see how he got the whole world to pray with him for one hour on Corpus Christi and just yesterday consecrated the Vatican to St. Michael the Archangel and St. Joseph. I see these as forshadowings of the Consecration of Russia. He could have it on his mind, for all we know.
In your opinion, who is this Pope? What will he do? Is he the Martyr-Pope?
Just curious as to what you think about him.
God bless!
~Hannah
I think the Holy Father calling in the major saints Michael and Joseph points towards a major spiritual battle that is either happening already (as seems to be the case) or is about to explode.
People are openly out there screaming their hatred of others and their "love" of Satan. It's not so under cover any more is it?
I wish the Vatican communications people would speak clearly and in coherent order about what is happening over the canonisation process for both Blesseds John XXIII and JP II.
An explanation for the lack of second miracle is needed and an immediate response to the media's posting that the first miracle attributed to the prayers of JP II is in doubt as the nun has relapsed.(That' the report - whether it's true or not I can't say; the Vatican need to say)
The fight is on.
The timeline you suggest Emmett is looking ever more likely.
Emmett,
Your timeline seems to be the following:
~Minor Chastisement (which we’re already experiencing)
~Our Lady’s Triumph - Period of Peace - Second Pentecost
~Restoration of the Church
~Evangelization of the entire world
~The great Apostasy
~Major Chastisement with Antichrist
~Judgment
Is this correct? I’m still having trouble believing that the Era of Peace would last just 25 years. It just doesn’t seem like enough time to evangelize the world. I think it would have to be at least a couple of generations. Perhaps 100 years of extra dominance given to the Holy Spirit to counter the 100 years that was given to the evil one? I read somewhere once, and I can’t remember who it was, but they suggested that it might last 500 years in order to repair the damage that Protestantism did to Christendom. In fact, the 500th Anniversary of Martin Luther’s rebellion will be in 2017.
Jamey said:
"Miltonic the consecration being done isn't fact. It is a fact that Russia wasn't consecrated to the Immaculate Heart of Mary in unison with the bishops of the world..."
Jamey,
The Consecration was done and was valid. The 1984 Consecration was done in union with the Catholic Bishops of the world and renewed the previous acts of consecration by Pius XII of the world (1942) and Russia (1952). In the letter PJPII sent to the world's bishops, the Holy Father clarified that it was to renew both the consecration of the world (1942) and Russia (1952). Shortly after the 1984 Consecration, Sister Lucia told the Papal Nuncio of Lisbon that the conditions God required for the collegial consecration of Russia were accomplished. End of story.
But, as you seem to forget, the Consecration was only one-half of Our Lady's Request at Fatima. The First Saturday Devotion was the other half and carries just as much weight as the Consecration. And, as you seem to forget, the messages of Fatima are not the messages of Our Lady concerning world Peace. There are also the messages of Our Lady of All Nations where it was requested that the Holy Father solemnly define the Fifth Marian Dogma. That has not been done yet. If you want to spend your energy on anything, spend it petitioning Pope Francis for the solemn definition of the Fifth Marian Dogma, rather than fixating on these ridiculous sedevacantist conspiracy theories on the Consecration.
KP said:
"miltonic, did you not notice that your quote says 'he will again appear amongst us in all the splendor of his mercy.'"
Sounds like he's talking about the Second Coming. Not a 1,000 year semi-Golden Age.
We look forward to Christ's Second Coming. Not a semi-Golden Age on Earth."
KP,
I never said anything about a 1,000 year semi-Golden age. That sounds like the heresy of Millenarianism, not the "period of peace" spoken of at Fatima and by Our Lady of All Nations.
The Second Coming is the Last Judgment. Christ will be coming with Judgement and the Sword at the Second Coming. Mercy will have run its course by the time the Second Coming occurs and there will certainly not be amu room for a "period of peace" talked about at Fatima because the Second Coming is the end of history and the beginning of Eternity.
Pius IX's prophecy states that:
"We expect that the Immaculate Virgin and Mother of God, Mary, Through her most powerful intercession will bring it about that our holy mother, the catholic church after removal of all obstacles and overcoming of all errors will gain in influence from day to day AMONG ALL NATIONS and in all places, prosper and rule from ocean to ocean, from the great stream to the ends of the earth; that she will enjoy PEACE and liberty...that all erring souls will return to the path of truth and justice after the darkness of their minds has been dispelled, and that there will be then one fold and one shepherd..."
Pius IX is talking about events that will occur within history, not in eternity following the Second Coming.
Miltonic,
Our lady of all nations is not an approved apparition.
http://catholiclane.com/olan-approved/
Also, the photos of Sister Lucy in 1984 do not look at all
Like the same sister Lucy of previous years and it is not just her age. There are some experts who have already analyzed the features and they don't match up. I'm not sure what happened but for anyone who does a search on the two sister Lucys he can draw his own conclusions.
Anonymous,
Our Lady of All Nations is most definitely an APPROVED apparition.
Medjugorje and Garabandal are unapproved, but Our Lady of All Nations is most definitely APPROVED:
"On 31 May 2002 Bishop Jozef Marianus Punt of Haarlem, having concluded a period of investigation, declared the apparitions accorded Ida Peerdeman of Amsterdam, Holland, in which the Blessed Virgin Mary asked to be known as Our Lady of All Nations, to be "of a supernatural origin"
http://www.ewtn.com/expert/expertfaqframe.asp
"sedevacantist conspiracy theories"
I think you know better than that - most Fatimists such as Fr Gruner, Kramer, Salza, Sungenis et al are not sedevacantists. They simply acknowledge the truth that all is not well in the Church - anyone who does seems to get labelled a sede. Conspiracy facts exist, Fatima is one of those.
"But, as you seem to forget, the Consecration was only one-half of Our Lady's Request at Fatima. The First Saturday Devotion was the other half and carries just as much weight as the Consecration."
The First Saturday devotions have been carried out for almost 100 years! We have it at our parish for example. The consecration of Russia to the IHM has not been done.
Sr Lucia in Sol de Fatima (September 1985)
Question: John Paul II had invited all the bishops to join in the consecration of Russia, which he was going to make at Fatima on 13 May 1982 and which he was to renew at the end of the Holy Year in Rome on 25 March 1984, before the original statue of Our Lady of Fatima. Has he not therefore done what was requested at Tuy?
Sister Lucy: There was no participation of all the bishops, and there was no mention of Russia.
Question: So the consecration was not done as requested by Our Lady?
Sister Lucy: No. Many bishops attached no importance to this act.
Regarding the saying to the papal nuncio of Lisbon, Fr Fox was a derailer, he also tried to debunk Akita.
"Father Fox has tried to forestall and avoid this formidable objection by claiming that when the Papal Nuncio went to see Sister Lucy after the 1984 consecration and asked if it was the consecration requested by Our Lord, Sister Lucy answered: 'Yes". In brackets, he added: "The Papal Nuncio of Portugal died shortly after the 1984 consecration." (Fatima Family Messenger Oct. '89, p.9.)
The Abbé de Nantes has proved that this testimony is false and non-existent. Archbishop Portalupi could not have visited Sister Lucy after the 1984 act of offering since he took to his bed after celebrating his last Mass that day at Fatima and died six days later, on 31 March. (CRC 225 Eng. ed. Jan. 90)
Father Fox now attempts to mask this enormous lie by coming out with further lies. "Sister Lucy said, he writes, she had told the Papal Nuncio of Lisbon shortly after the March 25, 1984 consecration that it fulfilled the conditions required by Our Lord." (Fox. "Mother Superior of Sr. Lucia writes concerning Collegial Consecration" The Wanderer 22 Feb. 90 p.10).
Father Fox truly wants to get things right: "To which Papal Nuncio did Sister Lucia confide in 1984 telling him that the collegial consecration was now completed?" he asked Maria do Fetal.
And she specified: "As regards the Apostolic Nuncio, Archbishop Sante Portalupi died in Portugal on March 31 ... Archbishop Salvatore Asta was appointed next ... Archbishop Salvatore Asta asked sister if the consecration of Russia was made on March 25, 1984.
She answered, 'Yes'. [Editor: Sr. Lucy told the Papal Nuncio 'Yes' and then remained quiet on the subject until 1989]". (Fatima Family Messenger, Jan-Feb-Mar. '90, p. 11) Father Fox dares to conclude: "Sister Lucia felt she had done her duty in 1984 by telling the Papal Nuncio". (The Wanderer 22 Feb. '90)
That is a new untruth! We know, in fact, that at the end of the year 1985, Archbishop Salvatore Asta - appointed Apostolic Nuncio to Portugal on 17 October 1984 - still had not met Sister Lucy (On 12 March 1986, the Abbe x ... told Frère Michel that he had learned during his stay in Portugal in October 1985 that Archbishop Salvatore Asta still had not met Sister Lucy.)
Nor had he any wish to meet her. He did not want to follow in the footsteps of Archbishop Portalupi, who had gone to the Coimbra Carmel after the act of offering of 13 May 1982, at Dr. Lacerda's instigation, to hear Sister Lucy state that John Paul II had not satisfied Our Lady's request."
Miltonic, do you think Medjugorje has been condemned and people should stay away from there?
Good info Jamey. Some people want to think that the consecration and conversion have already happened, despite the obvious evidence to the contrary when one simply opens their eyes.
The proclamation that Lucy confirmed the 1984 consecration was correct is simply false. The truth is far more nuanced than that.
And every quote that was given about an "era of peace" can easily be applied to the Kingdom Christ establishes once He returns and renews the world (in fact, one of the quotes posted flat out stated it was referring to the Second Coming, yet Miltonic portrayed it as an Era of Peace BEFORE Christ's Second Coming). People seem to forget that when Christ returns there will be ONE people of God on EARTH. When Christ returns the Peace will be on EARTH, not some mystical place in the sky. The Second Coming truly is the only real true and substantial Era of Peace on EARTH. Any other "Era of Peace" imaginable falls infinitely short relative to the true peace that occurs with Christ's Kingdom on Earth fully established at His Second Coming.
KP,
If it is a matter of Sister Lucia's word against Father Gruner's word, I'll go with Sister Lucia.
If it is a matter of Father Fox's word against Father Gruner's word, I'll go with Father Fox everytime.
The Consecration was done as requested, in 1984:
http://www.ewtn.com/expert/expertfaqframe.asp
http://www.ewtn.com/expert/expertfaqframe.asp
In order for your vacuous conspiracy theory to be credible, one would have to believe that everyone (Sister Lucia, Robert Fox, Archbishop Tarcisio Bertone, Sister Mary of Bethlehem, ect.) are lying and Father Gruner is privy to information that no one else has seen.
LOL!!
And to this ridiculous notion that the "period of peace" is the Second Coming, such a notion is betrayed by basic English grammar and vocabulary. Eternity is infinite. A "period" is limited and temporal.
Now, I am going to turn your conspiracy theory on its head and right back at you: What if there were a group of people (like, say, Freemasons) whose job it is to spread this Fatima conspiracy nonsense as well as oppose approved apparitions (like Our Lady of All Nations) whilst promoting unapproved apparitions (like Medjugorje) in order to actively prevent our Lady's Requests for Peace from being carried out. After all, War is profitable, isn't it, and Our Lady's Roadmap to Peace might just spoil the profits.
Jamey,
I never said Medjugorje was condemned.
I said it is not an approved apparition.
I also said that Our Lady of All Nations is an approved apparition as of 2002.
Do you agree with those sentiments?
To who ever wants to listen,
About the consecration being done, I don't know. There are so many lies, everywhere it's difficult to discern what really is true. When ever I hear Fr. Grunner's name mentioned my guard goes up IMMEDIATELY. Mom and Dad were always loyal to Rome and the Traditional Mass,but Fr. Grunner was always questionable in their eyes.Didn't he, Grunner, get in big trouble for breaking his vow of obedience?Wasn't he told to lay off the consecration bit by his superiors? Whether he is right or wrong the lives of the saints teach us OBEDIENCE is what is essential for the religious. Good grief that's why we have the SSPX ,due to disobedience. They are still arguing and though excommunication was lifted they are still illicit. Let's not go down that path... Back to the Concration et al.
I will say as a person who has done the 5 first Saturdays many times for many years it wasn't until 2012 that I was told what I was supposed to be doing reparation for specifically. I never knew that the 5 Saturdays were for the 5 kinds of offenses and blasphemies against the Immaculate Heart. I was just told for the offenses against her IM Heart. I recently learned that each month was reparation for :
!) Blashemies against the IM Heart
2) Against the Virginity of Mary
3) Against the Divine Maternity, refusing, at the same time, to receive her as the Mother of mankind
4) By those who seek publicly to implant in the hearts of children, indifference, disrespect and even hate for this IM Mother
5) By those who insult her directly in her Sacred Images.
Is it possible that many devout catholic are like me? We are dealing with 40plus years of being uninformed or malformed in our faith. Please let stop quibbling about wether the consecration was done. It get's us no where but arguing amongst ourselves. If we disagree on this account let's offer it up to Our Lady. Reparation means taking up your daily cross with out complaining for the intention of reparation and/or doing thing you don't like to do with out complaining. We need a little more prayer and a lot less arguing.
I do apologize if I offend anyone but Hey we sound like we are all practicing our faith and we sound like we all love the Lord. So let's continue sharing Ideas and thoughts because it sounds some people are learning . Also it's better to talk about what the Holy Spirit is trying to convey through the mystics verses dwelling on the culture of death.
God Bless everyone.
J
J,
We have the SSPX because modern churchmen embraced modernism and the desire to build a new Church friendly to the world and one thoroughly destructive to Catholicism - they pushed Lefebvre too far and he essentially didn't trust they would protect his young seminarians once he passed on. Also in good conscience he couldn't allow the Novus Ordo fiasco in his chapels as then Cardinal Ratzinger said would be necessary. A disconcertingly high level of churchmen are against the TLM. The SSPX have high friends in Rome as well - there are cardinals on their side, the church is split several ways.
There is a false obedience as well as a true obedience. Was Fr John O'Connor disobedient when his superiors ordered him to be quiet about the homosexuality in that diocese and ordered him to have psych tests and ultimately expelled him. Eventually he was proven correct. Most good churchmen who have spoken up in recent times have found themselves outside the "official" fold however some have fared worse such as the traditionalist Fr Alfred Kunz who had a horrific death.
Ultimately Lefebvre argued he was being obedient to the eternal Church and with what has transpired in the past 50 years he has been proven correct, the modern church has been a failed experiment. From memory he also said one of the greatest tricks of the devil was to use the obedience line at all costs. The modern church and operations have eventually given rise to horrors such as widescale abortion, "gay marriage" and a general anti-Christ society.
God Bless.
"The Consecration was done as requested, in 1984:
http://www.ewtn.com/expert/expertfaqframe.asp
http://www.ewtn.com/expert/expertfaqframe.asp"
Is ewtn the new magisterium?
"In order for your vacuous conspiracy theory to be credible, one would have to believe that everyone (Sister Lucia, Robert Fox, Archbishop Tarcisio Bertone, Sister Mary of Bethlehem, ect.) are lying and Father Gruner is privy to information that no one else has seen."
For those who want to read the other side of the Fr Gruner story:
http://www.fatima.org/apostolate/defense/notsusvir.asp
Fr Gruner generally hasn't claimed privy to information from special sources but with logic and analysis has concluded the Consecration wasn't done.
Bertone's handling of Fatima has been terrible.
Fr Fox claimed that Akita was false.
Who is Sr Mary of Bethlehem apart from that 89 letter typed on an IBM?
Sr Lucia never publicly stated the consecration was done. The documents produced to that effect from 1989 onward are frauds and contradict her statements in 1984, 1985 and 1987. The equipment they were written on weren't in the convent (IBM compatible pc with wordstar software), her signature a forgery, the style of writing and tone is not Lucia like and I can spot this myself. The politicians dressed as clerics in the Vatican have butchered Fatima for years.
Numerous times Sr Lucia herself said Russia had to be consecrated specifically. Pius XII did a consecration of the world in 1942 with some bishops so what is the difference to 1984? John Paul II a couple of years later panicked and called on the Assisi prayer days for world peace, as he knew there was no peace as desired from the 84 consecration and numerous members of the Vatican said he couldn't mention Russia specifically so political correctness is an issue again.
Ultimately Sr Lucia publicly never said she received a visitation from Heaven to confirm it had been done. Sr Lucia usually got her updates from celestial sources.
Instead ever since 1960 she was banished to barely ever be seen when Pope John XXIII decided to suppress the 3rd secret.
Why not silence critics and have her there in 2000 at the press conference to say the Consecration was correctly done?
Why keep her locked up when she was never a loose cannon to start with if indeed the Consecration was correctly done and the full Third Secret revealed?
Regarding your hypothetical anyone who defends the old Mass and points out the problems and errors of the modern Church are highly unlikely to be Masons. Masons hate the old Mass and love the modern church of the Novus Ordo (likely a Masonic concoction), holding hands and universal brotherhood, themes born of the lodges. Likewise not all who are in good standing with Rome are to be trusted. Remember the devil is still in the Vatican and it is clear on a number of issues. There are ways to discern friends of the Catholic Church. Apparently Fr Gruner lives a very austere life and drives an old bombed out car.
Ultimately Our Lady doesn't lie. She said Russia would be consecrated to her Immaculate Heart and there would be genuine peace for mankind so which part do you disagree with her? In the end there has been no definitive peace but an escalation in bloodshed and evil since 1984.
Regarding Our Lady of all Nations, yes it has been approved as supernatural, however how far does it extend - to every message, I am not having a go on this as I am just not sure every message is infallible there. For example one message seems to advocate socialism something contra to what previous popes have taught. This was suppose to be the last major apparition of Mary according to another message yet Kibeho came after which also has a level of Church approval. She said she was "once known as Mary" which is just downright odd and the Vatican corrected this many years later after the approval of 2002. The following link contains many of the issues associated with the visions:
http://www.theotokos.org.uk/pages/unapprov/amsterda/amsterdam-problems.htm
In any case if the "Fifth Marian dogma" as Peerdeman was told and ensuing peace from it is true, I see no contradiction, the Holy Father could easily do both in 10 minutes together.
First of all, if the Consecration was done wouldn't it be apparent to all?? I would think so. I don't think there would be so much confusion as to whether it's done or not.
If it was don't you think the slaughter of unborn babies wouldn't be happening right now?
I could go on but you get the point.
Peace for just a simple prayer. I have hope the Holy Father will do it.
Thanks for all the info, Jamey.
God bless!
~Hannah
Hi Hannah
Regarding your earlier questions.
These are just my thoughts I don't have certitude with many things but think most likely:
Regarding Pope Francis, either he or B16 could be martyred. Diverging from what Emmett thinks about the two lightning strikes relating to Blessed Maria Taigi's vision - perhaps those lightning strikes on St Peter's prior to the conclave instead refer to divine judgement coming down in this papacy on the Church and ultimately the world and probably tied into the fireball also hitting Russia earlier in the year.
With Pope Francis there are some good signs from his papacy he understands a spiritual battle to be taking place with his consecrations and prayers thus far and has consecrated his papacy to Our Lady of Fatima. Some things have concerned me as well but time is needed to make a better assessment of things.
Ultimately at some point he is going to have to be politically incorrect and offend someone whether it be:
- the Russians with the Consecration;
- the Jews with advancing the canonisation of Pius XII or condemning their involvement in banking (as previous popes have done) and the bondage on people that comes from it;
- the Medj crowd by condemning it rather than letting it drag out another x number of years;
- the world at large by making strong statements about gay marriage, abortion and enforcing in a manner the excommunication of Catholic in name politicians who are pushing planned parenthood, late term abortions etc.
It is one thing to do prayers and consecrations which has been done so far but ultimately the unpopular truth will have to come out and he will be punished by the world - if he doesn't go down this route there will be wrath from God imo. I think pleasing to God is those who speak the truth despite the stigma attached.
I really think something of Akita proportions isn't far away. Whether it is nuclear or more supernatural (such as a large scale fireball deluge) I also debate with myself and there are good points either way. I will get some beeswax candles soon.
May Our Lady's Immaculate Heart protect you and your family.
Jamey,
Thanks for your thoughts!
"Regarding Pope Francis, either he or B16 could be martyred."
I've been thinking that too. But, by who? That's what I don't get. I know in the Third Secret they saw soldiers. Would it be Russia or China starting a war? I think it was Bl. Elena Aiello who saw Russia at War, with America involved. Would you elaborate on that?
The lightning strikes really terrified me. I had no idea what it meant and still don't. I had never seen anything like it before. It could mean so many things, maybe judgment, like you said.
"- the Russians with the Consecration;
- the Jews with advancing the canonisation of Pius XII or condemning their involvement in banking (as previous popes have done) and the bondage on people that comes from it;
- the Medj crowd by condemning it rather than letting it drag out another x number of years;
- the world at large by making strong statements about gay marriage, abortion and enforcing in a manner the excommunication of Catholic in name politicians who are pushing planned parenthood, late term abortions etc."
I totally agree with all of this, especially Medjugorje. It's about time that nonsense was over. Like, I said, only follow approved apparitions. If the Bishop has even the slightest problem with it (and he does!), don't follow it. It's as simple as that. There are other reasons I personally have nothing to do with it, too. Yes, yes, of course there are good fruits. You can find that at your local parish (hopefully). You don't have to go over there for an emotional religious experience or to receive the Sacraments. We have a problem in the Church today. It's all about feelings and feeling good. That's a lot of what's going on at Medjugorje. There is nothing going on there that the devil couldn't do. Anyway, I don't want to start a argument about Medjugorje. I just wanted to say what I think.
Sainthood now for Pope Pius XII! Wouldn't it be something if he was canonized with Bl. John Paul II and Bl. John XXIII! We can dream...
You should write a book like Emmett! I'd be the first to read it! :)
"May Our Lady's Immaculate Heart protect you and your family."
And you as well!
God bless!
~Hannah
Miltonic:
"If it is a matter of Sister Lucia's word. . . If it is a matter of Father Fox's word against Father Gruner's word,..."
I'm talking about Sister Lucia, not Fr Gruner. Bob Sungenis just released a book in which he details the consecration of Russia, and all the claims that Sister Lucia approved of the consecration. She said numerous times AFTER 1984 that the consecration WAS NOT done.
On top of that, Pope Benedict sent an envoy to Russia to ask if the Orthodox would be offended if the Pope consecrated Russia. Why would he be asking this question if the consecration was already done 20 years before?
"In order for your vacuous conspiracy theory to be credible,"
Calling something a conspiracy theory is simply a way to dismiss an argument. It's not a conspiracy. There is conflicting evidence on both ends. It's just a simple fact.
"one would have to believe that everyone (Sister Lucia, Robert Fox, Archbishop Tarcisio Bertone, Sister Mary of Bethlehem, ect.) are lying"
Sister Lucia said contradictory things after 1984. She stated numerous times that the consecration wasn't done correctly-- AFTER 1984.
"and Father Gruner is privy to information that no one else has seen."
Talk about a straw man argument. There are many people other than Fr Gruner who hold that the consecration wasn't done. Fr Malachi Martin saw the third secret himself and stated it wasn't fully released. Even Pope John Paul II referred to the Third Secret discussing worldwide calamity and many millions of deaths.
"And to this ridiculous notion that the "period of peace" is the Second Coming, such a notion is betrayed by basic English grammar and vocabulary. Eternity is infinite. A "period" is limited and temporal."
First and foremost, the messages at Fatima, Sr Lucia, and all the Popes didn't even speak English. So using an English grammar argument is just nonsense.
Second, there is a ton of scriptural proof that God speaks to us in language so that we can understand it. The Kingdom of God is not literally like a mustard seed. Jesus is not literally a door.
Isaiah 11 discusses the Messianic Kingdom which occurs at Christ's Second Coming. And it's described as taking place in space and time. It says nothing about eternity. So we have Scriptural precedent to discuss the Kingdom at Christ's Second Coming in temporal terms.
Isaiah 65 discusses the Final Judgment and God creating a New Heaven and New Earth. When it discusses long lifespans, it uses people DYING at 100 years of age as a reference to how long life will be at this new creation. Here we see God using a temporal analogy to refer to the eternity of Heaven.
Isaiah 65:17-25:
"New Heavens and a New Earth
17 “See, I will create
new heavens and a new earth.
The former things will not be remembered,
nor will they come to mind.
“Never again will there be in it
an infant who lives but a few days,
or an old man who does not live out his years;
the one who dies at a hundred
will be thought a mere child;
the one who fails to reach a hundred
will be considered accursed.
For as the days of a tree,
so will be the days of my people;
my chosen ones will long enjoy
the work of their hands."
So we have clear Scriptural precedent of God using temporal terms to refer to eternal truths.
"Now, I am going to turn your conspiracy theory on its head and right back at you..."
I don't see how consecrating Russia "again" would cause more war and create more profits. That's a non-consistent self-refuting argument.
And if the Consecration was done correctly in 1984, then why are the Freemasons in the Vatican still there, and why are people still making war profits? Aren't you the one who says that the Consecration creates an Era of Peace? Yet you admit there isn't any peace?
Hannah said: "You should write a book like Emmett! I'd be the first to read it! :)"
And the only! ;-)
Regarding the fruits of Medjugorje it was raised by someone that the first fruit is orthodoxy and adherence to the Eternal Magisterium.
I will respond to your other questions tomorrow sometime.
Jamie and Hannah
At a time when pope Francis calls us to go out to the outskirts I find your comments offensive and sad! Stop navel gazing looking to the future and congratulating yourselves. Today a child cries in hunger whilst another is rejected in its first home. Human souls unique beautiful creations of God are lost. Let us pray and in prayer open to love not condemnation reach out to our brother sister here beside us. Please cease with words that wound and begin with words that bring new life and joy. What we do to the least we do to him whom we profess to love. I am sad to say love is in short supply in many comments here. Though I enjoy reading this blog I confess the lack of holy charity is a fruit that is certainly not of God.
Anon, should we simply keep quiet about things that are wrong? That is false charity as there is no charity without truth - that has what has led to the great apostasy.
Medjugorje is diabolical.
Hannah,
You may find the following link useful regarding Russia and potential war - Fr Kramer links Fatima with Sr Aiello's prophecies. Some of the info is a bit dated:
http://www.catholictradition.org/Mary/fatima6b.htm
Sr Aiello:
"The times are grievous. The whole world is in turmoil, because IT HAS BECOME WORSE THAN AT THE TIME OF THE DELUGE!” “Everything is in suspense, like a thread; when this thread breaks, the justice of God will fall like a thunderbolt and will complete its terrible course of purification.” - given on December 8, 1956
Could the thunderbolt here be related to the lightning strikes on St Peters prior to the conclave?
Sr le Royer:
"But what I saw, it is that if the judgment arrived in the century of 1900, it would come only towards the end, and that if the world exceeds this century, the first two decades of the century of 2000 will not pass without the judgment intervening, as I saw it in the light of God."
2017 seems most likely opposed to 2029 especially the present state of matters for the grand chastisement. In the meantime we are likely to see more water flooding of various countries which we have seen in recent years.
God Bless.
Also found the following regarding Fr Gruner and his dealings with then Cardinal Begoglio, apparently he wrote to Gruner a couple of times and a trad decided to call Fr Gruner's assistant:
"Okay Father Gruner's secretary phoned me back today. She said the two letters that Father Gruner received from Cardinal Bergoglio will not be posted online because there are personal things in them. Although she did direct me to the paragraph above Cardinal Bergoglio's biographical details on this page because it comes directly from one of the letters that Cardinal Bergoglio sent to Father Gruner.
http://www.fatima.org/news/newsviews/newsviews031113_2.asp
So I'll quote the paragraph here.
"In his Archdiocese of Buenos Aires (the last assignment as Cardinal prior to his election to the papacy) there are two parishes dedicated to Our Lady of Fatima where special devotions in honor of Our Lady's Immaculate Heart are practiced particularly on the First Saturday of the month."
Regarding our talk the other day about how some people seem to be losing hope Father Gruner's secretary suggested that I direct them to the March 19 Fatima Perspective article by Christopher Ferrara titled "Some Wise Words from Father Gruner" which I quote below.
http://www.fatimaperspectives.com/oc/perspective662.asp"
It really does seem all hell will soon break loose.
Siobhan,
Some people would restrict the term "Great Apostasy" to the apostasy under the Antichrist, which takes place after the deaths of the Two Witnesses. However I believe that the period of the Great Apostasy is broader than this, and that it also includes the falling away which must take place before the appearance of the Antichrist, mentioned by St. Paul in 2Thes 2:3:
"For that day will not come, unless the rebellion comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction".
While its true that there will be another falling away from the faith during the persecution of the Antichrist, I believe the apostasy we are enduring now is part of the Great Apostasy itself. I would also argue that the fall of "Babylon" is the minor chastisement, and the battle of Armageddon is the Great Chastisment. So I would amend the timeline to the following:
~Great Apostasy (which we’re already experiencing)
~Our Lady’s Triumph - Period of Peace - Second Pentecost established by the Two Witnesses/Angelic Pope/Great Monarch
~Restoration of the Church
~Evangelization of the entire world
~The martyrdom of the Two Witnesses
~Second Coming of Christ
~The minor chasteisment/mega-tsumani/collapse of America
~Rise to power of the Antichrist/final Passover of the Church
~Great Chastisement/Armageddon
~General Resurrection of the Dead
~Last Judgement
~Creation of the new heaven and the new earth
The main problem with proposing anything longer than a few decades for the duration of the era of peace is the fact that it is brought about by the Two Witnesses:
“Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the great and awesome day of the LORD comes. And he will turn the hearts of fathers to their children and the hearts of children to their fathers, lest I come and strike the land with a decree of utter destruction.”
(Mal 4:5-6)
Unless the Two Witnesses are to live for an extraordinarily long length of time before they are put to death by the Antichrist, I would say that their ministry would last a few decades tops. Perhaps even less.
Emmett - this doesn't make sense. You have the Second Coming before the rise of the antichrist and the minor chastisement. How can these come after the Second Coming? The Second Coming should be the end of history, and these would both be historical events.
Dupont's timeline went (Section 32):
Today
Wars
Triumph of the Immaculate Heart
Marian period of peace
War with the antichrist
Triumph of the Church
Brief period of peace
Second Coming and the end of the World.
This doesn't make much sense either, really.
The more I read about this subject, the more I'm convinced of one thing. Whatever is coming our way will be so unlike what we expect as to be a surprise to everyone.
"The more I read about this subject, the more I'm convinced of one thing. Whatever is coming our way will be so unlike what we expect as to be a surprise to everyone."
Possibly Mark W.
Also I think Emmett may have inadvertently put the Second Coming before the minor chastisement.
It seems to me Emmett is following primarily a certain logic of scripture and then everything falls within that even if approved apparitions seem to suggest otherwise, whilst Dupont more on major apparitions and then everything else adjusts to that.
Anonymous,
In what way did I offend you? I surely didn't mean to and wasn't trying to sound unloving. I don't back down from the truth. Period.
Yes, Jamie, Medjugorje is diabolic. No doubt about that.
That was me, Hannah above. Forgot my name.
Don't worry Hannah you weren't aggressive at all, they just didn't like what you said and attacked you.
Jamey,
Thank you for the articles. I'll be sure to check them out.
"Could the thunderbolt here be related to the lightning strikes on St Peters prior to the conclave?"
Wow! I had never saw that. Thank you for pointing that out.
It's amazing to me that we're actually living Prophecy. It the same time it's scary for me...
I don't want to die in a natural disaster. I'm scared of death, to be honest and I'm not sure why. I'm such a sinner and don't want to die without the Sacraments, without Confession. I see how evil this world is and I know something terrible is not far off. I remember Pope John Paul saying something about the oceans coming over continents (in reference to the Third Secret, I think). I'm young and scared I'm going to die in all of this. Emmett himself said the younger generation will live Scripture.
Anyway, please pray for me, Jamey. I really appreciate it.
God bless!
~Hannah
"Don't worry Hannah you weren't aggressive at all, they just didn't like what you said and attacked you."
Yes, I know. The fact of the matter is people need to hear the truth.
Hannah,
To quote Fr Miceli, the very air we breathe is apocalyptic so I understand what you say about feeling something big ain't far off. Even when I wasn't Catholic 10 years ago I thought something was going to happen. Sr Aiello prophesied the great fire in the 1950's, Sr Sasagawa in 1973 so there isn't much time. God needs to intervene to put an end to the insanity out there particularly revolving around human sexuality, technologies being used and abortion which has impacted so many people in a way that isn't discussed nor understood, there is an entire generation of deeply hurt people and woman particularly. God's wrath will be just and glorious.
I think it is normal to feel some fear regarding death and I think Our Lord felt the same so we are in good company! Do your best in the spiritual life but have some fun as well with hobbies and personal interests, a good balance helps and is necessary. I think some saints pushed themselves to the point of breakdowns at times. I am also scared of meeting Jesus and what he may think of me I pray that he will spare me as I perform no heroic sacrifices and know I can and should do more. It is painful and a crucifixion in its own way but I personally think one of the big get out of jail cards is to pray for and forgive your enemies and those who hurt you. Oh and the Mt Carmel Scapular. I am getting a heap in bulk and then leaving them with friends and relatives at their houses.
I will pray for you as are many of your Catholic brothers and sisters around the world including some incredibly holy people, we are family. The rosary beads themselves signify the link we have with one another.
Jamey,
"Even when I wasn't Catholic 10 years ago I thought something was going to happen."
When I wasn't Catholic, I was too young to even care or understand! Ever since I was baptized, I study these things, though. It's better to know what's coming then to have it catch you by surprise, I guess. BTW, I received all three Sacraments of Initiation when I was 12. My life has never been the same since. I love the Church and the Priests with a burning love. I can't even describe it. I love the traditions of the Church. I despise Modernism and will help fight to rid it of Holy Mother Church, by holding fast to what is true, good, glorious and beautiful. I'm doing my best in the spiritual life. I love the Mass and the Sacrament of Penance. I don't know what I would do without it them both.
"I think it is normal to feel some fear regarding death and I think Our Lord felt the same so we are in good company!"
Yes, we are in good company! Jesus was afraid, too, in the Garden of Gethsemane. As for fearing death, my problem as not knowing what it's going to be like, if it will be painful, etc. Sometimes, I wake up one day and think will this be the day when Akita will be a reality or will this be the day when we will be punished for our evil, etc. I try not to dwell on it so much. I try to enjoy life and work on my own holiness. It isn't easy, for a teenager like me. Sometimes you think your the only teen out there trying to be holy. It's hard. But, It starts with us, after all. We have to work on our own holiness. The Saints have told us few are saved. You and I need to try to be in those few. This is why we are here. As the Baltimore Catechism says, we are here to know, love, and serve God and be happy with him in Heaven. If we aren't doing that, then we've got it all wrong. That is one of the problems in the Church today. It's as if the culture has succeeded in converting the Church. The Church is supposed to convert the culture. Today, you'll find Catholics who aren't any different than everybody else. Why? There's a failure in holiness and the Clergy teaching us how to do it. That's why. We have to change that. Thank God we have the restoration of the Church to look forward, too. I pray I'll see it. I'm only 16 years old (actually young! :) ) I just want the Church to be holy. The Lord set a barrier between the things of the world and His Church. We can't be a friend of the world and of the Church. It doesn't work that way. Anyway, I got off topic...again! I just want to share my thoughts with like-minded people.
"With all your soul, fear God, revere his Priests. With all your strength, love your creator, forsake not his minsters. Honor God and respect the Priest." -Sirach 7: 29-31
"I will pray for you as are many of your Catholic brothers and sisters around the world including some incredibly holy people, we are family. The rosary beads themselves signify the link we have with one another."
Thank you, Jamey. You will be in my daily prayers also, my brother in Chris.
Enjoy one of my favorite songs. :)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4H4d2AMryYs
God bless!
~Hannah
Hannah,
I have no idea what sequence of events will take place in the future. It's a "fun", academic exercise to see what can be figured out. But I can say a thing or two about fear.
First off, I think it’s important to wrap our collective heads around the fact – FACT, mind you – that we are at war. It’s just my personal opinion, but I think we need to start looking at it in this way. Otherwise, we really will have a much harder time when the hard times come.
It’s a spiritual battle, granted. That makes each of us, in our own way, both a soldier and a battlefield. We need to approach this fight as such.
I was in the service, back in…well…a long time ago. I was never in combat, but I do know a thing or two about fear, and having to do your job through fear. If I didn’t do my job, though I might be as afraid as anyone ever has been, then someone would get hurt or killed. But through that fear your training takes over. You have to acknowledge the fear and rely on your training.
And that still applies in a spiritual fight as well. Train yourself. Do the First Friday devotions. Pray the rosary. Pray the Divine Mercy chaplet. If you don’t do these things now, learn them. Do them. They become a habit and easier with practice. Make time.
Cover yourself in sacramentals. I have a rosary in my pocket anytime I’m out of the house. Get a St. Benedict’s medal, get it blessed by a priest, and learn what it means. Get some holy water from your parish and put a tiny font in your house. Bless yourself with it every time you pass it. Replenish it often. Get salt blessed by a priest and sprinkle it around your house on a fairly regular basis. The blessing I have is quite good. Many priests these days don’t know the blessing of salt. If you want, I can post it here (if Emmett doesn’t mind – it is, after all his living room). Make your home a spiritual fortress.
The more you do these things, the more you will be training your heart and mind in the ways of spiritual warfare. With time and training, you can become a spiritual paratrooper – able to fight back with minimal equipment while surrounded and outgunned by the enemy. (A couple of friends have called me a prayer warrior in the past, and that gave me the idea for this analogy.)
Trust me. I know fear. And if a guy like me can be trained to fight through the fear, so can anyone. Acknowledge the fear. Understand that it is natural. Train yourself to overcome it.
Mark,
Thank you so much for taking the time to write out such a detailed message. I appreciate that.
Yes, I know we're in a battle today. It's a battle for our souls. The Devil wants us with him in Hell and he'll do anything to get us there.
Thank you for all the recommendations. I pray the Rosary every night, as well as the Divine Mercy chaplet. I do that one for Priests. I have a Holy Water font in the hallway. I have holy pictures all over the house, as well as a few crucifixes and a San Damiano Cross. I have medals, crucifixes, etc to wear around the neck. That's just some of the Sacramentals I have.
Despite all this, I still fail and sin, but we have to get back up again.
I'm doing my best, though. Fear doesn't grip me constantly. Sometimes, it does...
May God bless you Mark and thank you!
~Hannah
From "The Moynihan Letters" blog of March 13, 2013, in the comments section and posted by "eolauger":
"Many people were disappointed that there was no obvious connection between the new Pope Francis and the last pope on the prophetic list of St. Malachy, “Petrus Romanus” or “Peter the Roman.” As I awoke this morning, the thought entered my mind that this is because Pope Benedict XVI and Pope Francis, both of whom are still alive, are the dual fulfillment of the previous title on St. Malachy’s list, referring to “the Glory of the Olive.”
Benedict’s name recalls the olive because St. Benedict’s order to which his name implicitly refers is also known as the Olivetans. Moreover the olive appears on the coat of arms of his titular diocese in Italy (not his papal coat of arms). Pope Francis’ surname, Bergoglio, means “Mount of Olives,” perhaps a prophetic reference to the Church’s Gethsemane, which Pope Benedict preceded him into.
There is also a deeper reason why there should be two fulfillments of “The Glory of the Olive” rather than one. It is an acknowledgment of the prophecy of the Apocalypse regarding the two witnesses against the Antichrist, who are referred to by St. John as “two olive trees” before God. I am not saying that this is the definitive fulfillment of that prophecy. Nevertheless, Popes Benedict XVI and Francis are among the signs of the times in which we live."
I would have never found this quote if I had not had a rather startling and electric moment the other day while reading of Pope Francis dedicating that statue of St. Michael with Emeritus Benedict in attendance. The thought, "The two witnesses!" jumped out of nowhere...and I then googled a bit to see if anyone else had the same thought.
Apparently, others have.
Anon,
"At a time when pope Francis calls us to go out to the outskirts I find your comments offensive and sad! Stop navel gazing looking to the future and congratulating yourselves. Today a child cries in hunger. . ."
This is the definition of a false dichotomy.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_dilemma
One can be interested in eschatology and speak openly about problems in the world while still being charitable and caring.
Great advice Mark W!
Indeed it is spiritual war - what has struck me and what I have commented previously here is the number of people now suffering mental problems. Just recently a famous Australian footballer who is usually very casual loves surfing and generally a chilled out guy began to experience insomnia out of nowhere and a huge anxiety. Just today another one has come out and said he is struggling suicidal thoughts. So many simply cannot sleep without medication.
It is a spiritual holocaust, wrath of a spiritual nature has poured out upon mankind some people even are beginning to resemble demons with drug taking activity, odd tatts and body piercings. A friend related a couple of weeks back one lady got up in front of their chapel congregation had a nervous breakdown and ended up in hospital. That chapel is strongly geared toward Medjugorje (with one of the priests wearing a Queen of Peace chausible) and I have noticed many who are strongly devoted to that apparition seem sick.
Regarding your comment on being surrounding by the enemy at times, I like St Teresa of Avila's saying that God plus one equals an army.
Emmett, are you able to clear up as to whether you accidentally put the Second Coming before the minor chastisement? Also how do you envisage the Second Pentecost beginning? Previously you thought it would be martyrdom of a pope.
"Despite all this, I still fail and sin, but we have to get back up again."
You are not alone here friend. St Paul even after his Road to Damascus experience still struggled with sin. Ultimately the Lord loves struggling sorrowful sinners.
"I'm doing my best, though. Fear doesn't grip me constantly. Sometimes, it does..."
That is good it isn't constant, and I think a normal cycle of the spiritual battle. Nothing like offering it up to turn it to gold. The Lord also gives us some soul candy along the way to help us too.
KP what do you make of the Consecration of Russia book?
KP,
You have asserted that "Bob Sungenis just released a book in which he details the consecration of Russia, and all the claims that Sister Lucia approved of the consecration. She said numerous times AFTER 1984 that the consecration WAS NOT done."
First, is this the same Bob Sungenis who is not sure if the moon landings were real?
Second, where are your citations to documents in defense of your conspiracy theory that asserts that Sister Lucia, Father Fox, Sister Mary of Bethlehem, and the Secretary of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith - Archbishop Tarcisio Bertone - are all lying or forging documents?
Third, where is the citation to your assertion that "Pope Benedict sent an envoy to Russia to ask if the Orthodox would be offended if the Pope consecrated Russia"?
Fourth,in response to your assertion that "the messages at Fatima, Sr Lucia, and all the Popes didn't even speak English. So using an English grammar argument is just nonsense," I would reply that the messages of Fatima have been translated into English and so your point is moot.
Fifth, in response to your comment:
"I don't see how consecrating Russia "again" would cause more war and create more profits. That's a non-consistent self-refuting argument.
And if the Consecration was done correctly in 1984, then why are the Freemasons in the Vatican still there, and why are people still making war profits? Aren't you the one who says that the Consecration creates an Era of Peace? Yet you admit there isn't any peace?"
I would reply as I have already replied: the Consecration was done correctly in 1984. The Consecration was only one half of the Request made by Our Lady of Fatima. The First Saturday Devotion was the other half. Also, Fatima is not the only approved apparition of Our Lady that contains the Promise of Peace. The approved apparition of Our Lady of All Nations promises Peace, but adds the Request that the Holy Father solemnly define the Fifth Marian Dogma (Co-Redemptrix, Mediatrix and Advocate) in order that Our Lady will be permitted to intervene for Peace (Our Lady's Titles are her Functions).
Jamey says,
We have the SSPX because modern churchmen embraced modernism and the desire to build a new Church friendly to the world and one thoroughly destructive to Catholicism..."
WRONG.
We have the SSPX because "traditional" Catholics can be just as disobedient as liberal Catholics.
Then Jamey says:
"There is a false obedience as well as a true obedience."
WRONG.
There is only obedience or disobedience. SSPX opted for the latter.
Perhaps this fixation with disobedience explains why so many "traditional" Catholics have latched onto Medjugorje as if it is an approved apparitions, wjen in fact the opposite is the case and Medjugorje has received nothing but negative judgements from the local Bishops there. All this nonsense about the "positive fruits" of Medjugorje reminds me of one of the Devils oldest tricks: allowing piety to coexist alongside disobedience.
"WRONG."
Capitalising doesn't increase the strength of your argument.
"First, is this the same Bob Sungenis who is not sure if the moon landings were real?"
Yep the same Bob Sungenis whose work resulted in the heretical notion of the Mosaic covenant being eternal removed from US catechisms. So Bob smashed a heresy are you going to pat him on the back? Also the same Bob Sungenis who fights for the faith against the most militant nasty anti-Catholic proponents. Not everything we are told officially is true, conspiracies do exist and alarm bells raised when there are major inconsistencies so Bob has his own take on things.
"I would reply as I have already replied: the Consecration was done correctly in 1984. The Consecration was only one half of the Request made by Our Lady of Fatima. The First Saturday Devotion was the other half."
I already responded to your thesis re Our Lady of All Nations above but you have pretended it doesn't exist and didn't answer the questions. Fatima is public revelation and not just private - the miracle of the sun transported all those present back to biblical times, and that was from a Church enemy and Freemason. How many popes have spoken of Our Lady of All Nations in the past century, how many on Fatima? I am saying Fatima carries the greatest weight and I would take that at face value first, although there isn't necessarily inconsistency between them as highlighted above.
When did Our Lady in a private visitation tell Sr Lucia that there weren't enough First Saturday devotions. Catholics have been doing these for close to 100 hundred years and have kept their side of the bargain, instead she and her Son said for the best part of 70 years that the Consecration in fact wasn't done. It will be done late! Her Son's ministers could very well befall the same fate as the king of France. A vision was given of a bishop in white stepping over the carnage of dead bodies. In the end Russia will be consecrated to her Immaculate Heart "and will be converted and a period of peace given to mankind."
Messages from Marian apparitions ain't a rubics cube, they are usually given to little children and easy to understand. If mankind doesn't repent as she warns there will be chastisements, if Russia consecrated as per Heaven's wishes there will be peace. End of story.
This is a test from God, he is not interested in political correctness hence a stack of consecrations of the entire world will not suffice. One quality consecration will do it. Wrath on the Church will continue until a pope has the guts (and prayers behind him) to be politically incorrect on a number of key issues.
"There is only obedience or disobedience. SSPX opted for the latter."
Serious? That is A-grade legalism.
So Mass attendance has declined by about 600% in terms of % of said Catholics who actually attend Mass. Lefebvre who was considered one of the great evangelical bishops of the past century stood up while the demolition was taking place and eventually made a stand against Rome which has created a new church. Ultimately the Novus Ordo as we know it hurts Catholic belief and leads to sacrilege, as a result in good conscience he couldn't permit sacrilege.
Lefebvre was held in high regard in Rome and was on his way to being a cardinal, the Church never had problems with him before VII. He most definitely wasn't a hardcore legalist trad as unfortunately some select SSPX followers are, you can see pictures of him whilst the head of the Holy Ghost Fathers having fun with African youth, he knew how to be pastoral.
So in the scenario a priest is told to be quiet by his bishop about homosexual clergy and those touching children should he be obedient? Should St Mary MacKillop have been quiet and "obedient" when that priest was touching kids 100+ years ago ultimately resulting in her excommunication? Please answer the question.
"Perhaps this fixation with disobedience explains why so many "traditional" Catholics have latched onto Medjugorje as if it is an approved apparitions"
Most trads are well aware that the bishop has spoken negatively of it. Trads aren't happy because politicians in the Vatican have usurped both bishops rulings and created confusion - more poor people have spent serious money going to pilgrimage there. What distresses many Catholics is that Medj has permeated NO parishes.
I really don't like the term "traditionalist" because ultimately most are simply practicing Catholics but it must be used.
A lot of traditionalists don't go with Medjugorje. If I had to label myself, I'm a traditionalist (today it seems you have to). The negative comments of the Bishops to me are ENOUGH. Do they not know what they're talking about? Why does the whole Catholic world ignore them (or at least appear to be). Unless Rome says otherwise, I refuse to have anything to do with Medjugorje or any other unapproved apparition. You are better off spending your time studying your Faith and not running after random apparitions. I see no solid truth from this apparition. Doesn't the Mother of God come to warn and instruct us when she needs too? She doesn't come and ramble on about nothing for 30+ years. That's ridiculous. There are many problems with this apparition that I'm not going to get into here. The point is the fact that the Bishops are negative on it is enough for me to be negative on it, unless Rome says otherwise. For all we know, it could be the Devil Himself appearing deceiving the whole Catholic world. You just don't know. Note: I'm not talking about the fruits, Sacraments, all the good that goes on over there. I see the Bishop as the Successor of the Apostles and every word he says is important to me. He is the one with the authority. You don't ignore him or refuse to listen to him. You obey him in everything, except sin.
I do wish the SSPX would be regularized, but it doesn't like look it will be any time soon. I can understand why they did what they did though. They still need to be back with the Pope and Rome, even if it is modernist. They can do much good for the Church. Heck, even I would go to Mass there! I can't bring myself to do it now. I'm in union with the Pope, no matter what. It would never be otherwise for me. I love the fact they have hung fast to tradition thru the hardest time, but I think disobedience to the Pope was too much. Couldn't they have had their Latin Masses and everything else while still with the Pope? Then, we wouldn't have this massive schism. Although, that would have been hard to do with the tribulation (as I call it) going on after Vatican II. Like them, I wish Rome would return to tradition. It seems we'll still have to wait for that to happen. I wish there wasn't a crisis of Faith in the Church today. I wish this Great Apostasy was over. We'll have to wait. We, in union with the Pope, can still cling to tradition, as I do. There's not much else we can do. In the meantime, I pray for the SSPX. There should be no schisms in the Church.
Anyway, just some poor thoughts from me. I'm a horrible writer, I know.
Jamey, have you ever thought of starting a blog? Again, I would be the first to read it. ;)
God bless!
~Hannah
Mark - I would argue that the Second Coming of Christ will actually occur within human history, rather than solely beyond history at the resurrection of the dead and the Last Judgment. In Scripture, the Second Coming of Christ is associated with the eschatological earthquake in Jerusalem (which occurs at the martyrdom of the Two Witnesses), and a number of OT and deuterocanonical passages which are related to the final coming of Christ similarly speak of earthquakes and mountains being thrown down. St. Paul also states that Christ will come to make war on the Antichrist with the sword of His mouth in 2Thes 2, which echoes the eschatological battle in Rev 19. So the Second Coming of Christ will take place at some point in the reign of the Antichrist. This is when the enemies of Christ will be made His footstool. The sword which issues from the mouth of the Risen Christ is the command to gather the nations for the battle of Armageddon.
This is way too complicated to fit into a few paragraphs. In a nutshell, I believe that by comparing all the passages in Scripture concerning this subject side-by-side, it gives us a picture of Christ actually returning within history, and that His Second Coming will actually have effects in history. Although the primary purpose of the Second Coming is to thwart the aspirations of the Antichrist by destroying the world in fire before the new creation, I believe that there will be a small number of years (possibly seven) between the Second Coming of Christ and the end of the world.
Emmett said:
"Mark - I would argue that the Second Coming of Christ will actually occur within human history, rather than solely beyond history at the resurrection of the dead and the Last Judgment. In Scripture, the Second Coming of Christ is associated with the eschatological earthquake in Jerusalem (which occurs at the martyrdom of the Two Witnesses), and a number of OT and deuterocanonical passages which are related to the final coming of Christ similarly speak of earthquakes and mountains being thrown down. St. Paul also states THAT CHRIST WILL COME TO MAKE WAR ON THE ANTICHRIST WITH THE SWORD OF HIS MOUTH in 2Thes 2, which echoes the eschatological battle in Rev 19. So the Second Coming of Christ will take place at some point in the reign of the Antichrist. This is when the enemies of Christ will be made His footstool. The sword which issues from the mouth of the Risen Christ is the command to gather the nations for the battle of Armageddon.
This is way too complicated to fit into a few paragraphs. In a nutshell, I believe that by comparing all the passages in Scripture concerning this subject side-by-side, it gives us a picture of Christ actually returning within history, and that His Second Coming will actually have effects in history. Although the primary purpose of the Second Coming is to thwart the aspirations of the Antichrist by destroying the world in fire before the new creation, I believe that there will be a small number of years (possibly seven) between the Second Coming of Christ and the end of the world."
~ ~ ~
Emmett,
Prophecy too besides Scripture state Jesus is going to "MAKE WAR AGAINST THE ANTI-CHIRST" by warning of the anti-Christ "WITH THE SWORD OF HIS MOUTH" supernaturally during the worldwide Great Warning. This is to happen "soon" as the messages from Heaven say. I think your disbelief in the Warning has you presenting the end times differently than the Gospel and private revelation states. Why don't you believe in the Warning? The loss of faith now in the world, much sin so much grace as God promises, this is how God is going to act to change hearts, to enlighten the world.
I wish you would explain why you do not believe in the prophesied Great Warning? There have been messages in which God quotes the last verses in Revelation 6 to describe the Great Warning.
Reading the comments stating reject the yet to be approved private revelation is no good. God would not remain silent, expecting everyone to figure the times out only after approval comes from the Church. When is that going to happen? Are all the daily messages from Heaven to be ignored?
Read Monsignor Esseff's words concerning private revelation on the homepage at locutions.org/
Concerning Private Revelations: These are private revelations and there is no need to believe them. If these revelations help your faith, then receive them. If not, you can set them aside. We are called to believe only public revelations.
Emmett, important, your blog helps in the discussion of the end times revealed in private revelation. Thanks! I will look for your explaining why you reject the Great Warning. If you accept the gift of the Great Warning, I apologize.
Mary
Mary,
I was just wondering if you could point me to any approved private revelation concerning "the Great Warning"?
What is this "Great Warning" going to consist of?
Miltonic,
Check out St. Faustina's diary, Divine Mercy in my soul. On page 42, verse 83, Jesus told her, "before I come as the just Judge, I am coming first as the King of Mercy."
Jesus explains the Warning to St. Faustina. You can read this knowing it was approved by the Church.
Hannah,
There was a time when many "approved" apparitions were not yet approved and many bishops were skeptical of the apparitions. But they were authentic. There are apparitions taking place today that have not been approved yet. You should spend time learning about them. You can pray for discernment about them. God gives the gift of discernment. Do not put limitations on our God. He can communicate to His children any way He pleases. Many people make the mistake of using human reasoning rather than seeking answers through prayer. Do not make the mistake of doing this.
Hannah,
Read La Salette. I hate to break this to you, but not all bishops are holy and serve God. Some bishops serve the beast. We are living in the End Times. Expect the unexpected. Pray for discernment and run from any religious who would contradict scripture and the gospels.
Hi Mary,
I have no desire to hassle you over your support of the various prophets, but the Bible warns against many of the false prophets at the time of the end.
My personal copy of the Bible states precisely the following:
"A shocking, horrible thing has happened in the land: The prophets prophesy falsely, and the priests teach as they wish; Yet my people will have it so. What will you do when the end comes?" Jeremiah 5:30-31 (New American Version)
God Bless.
Let us listen to what God says.
Emphasis is mine:
God the Father spoke to St. Catherine of Siena about his “ministers,” the priests (and Bishops, who are Priests). She recorded it in her Dialogue:
"…It is my intention that they be held in due reverence, not for what they are in themselves, but for my sake, because of the AUTHORITY I have given them. Therefore the virtuous must not lessen their reverence, even should these ministers fall short in virtue. And, as far as the virtues of my ministers are concerned, I have described them for you by setting them before you as stewards of... my Son’s body and blood and of the other sacraments. This dignity belongs to all who are appointed as such stewards, to the bad as well as to the good.
…Because of their virtue and because of their sacramental dignity you ought to love them. And you ought to hate the sins of those who live evil lives. But you may not for all that set ourselves up as their judges; this is not my will because they are my Christs, and you ought to LOVE and REVERENCE the AUTHORITY I have given them."
End of story.
God bless!
~Hannah
Mary,
You show much wisdom in your comments. God said there are prophets for all ages. Yes, there are prophets walking the earth today. There are also false prophets, too. Pray for the gift of discernment.
And yes, I know about LaSalette and have studied it. I pray for those Bishops and Priests every day...
God bless!
~Hannah
Hannah,
What would you do if your pastor openly voted for Obama?
There are limitations. We all have superiors but when we know these superiors commit mortal sins, we are not obliged to be loyal to them. Yes, we love them and hate their sins. But we must not obey them if they commit mortal sins. We must pray for them but not be led by them.
Anonymous,
Excuse me? We are supposed to obey them in everything, unless they tell us to sin. Period. How about we start reading what God has to say?
If my pastor would have voted for Obama, I would have admonished the sinner, for the good of his own soul. I still have to obey him and I still love him.
I have a deep reverence and respect for the Clergy. I pray every night for these unholy Bishops you speak of. I know they're out there. I still have an obligation to obey the Bishop, even if he's in Mortal Sin. It is about his Authority.
Please read the Dialogue so you will have a better understanding. And please pray for the Clergy. It's the least we can do. It must be a horrible thing for a Priest or Bishop to be in Hell...
I will not get into an argument over this. This is Emmett's blog, not yours or mine.
God bless!
~Hannah
Miltonic,
Jamey already dissected the beginning of your argument, but I wanted respond to an interesting section of your argument.
"Fourth,in response to your assertion that "the messages at Fatima, Sr Lucia, and all the Popes didn't even speak English. So using an English grammar argument is just nonsense," I would reply that the messages of Fatima have been translated into English and so your point is moot."
I hope that you're not serious.
Every person who has ever had a single semester in a theology department knows that you must read a religious text in its original language. That's why theologians learn Greek and Hebrew. They don't do it for their own enjoyment. They do it because the inspiration of the Holy Spirit was given in the original language, and translations are not inherently guided by the Holy Spirit. The Church officially approves the NRSV translation of the Bible. That doesn't mean the NRSV is infallible. The original Greek and Hebrew are infallible. Translators are not.
An English translation is never as authoritative as the original text. The fact that you'd even argue that is silly.
You also haven't addressed my argument regarding Isaiah 65:17-25, where the New Heavens and New Earth are portrayed in temporal terms, even though the New Heavens and New Earth are eternal. We have much Scriptural precedent for God to lower Himself to our level and use terms we can understand that are not strictly literal.
"I would reply as I have already replied: the Consecration was done correctly in 1984. The Consecration was only one half of the Request made by Our Lady of Fatima. The First Saturday Devotion was the other half. Also, Fatima is not the only approved apparition of Our Lady that contains the Promise of Peace. The approved apparition of Our Lady of All Nations promises Peace, but adds the Request that the Holy Father solemnly define the Fifth Marian Dogma (Co-Redemptrix, Mediatrix and Advocate) in order that Our Lady will be permitted to intervene for Peace (Our Lady's Titles are her Functions)."
Jamey already addressed this issue earlier. You ignored it and have yet to refute his argument.
Hannah,
I can't believe your attitude!
Also Sr Lucia in 1952:
"Make it known to the Holy Father that I am still awaiting the Consecration of Russia to My Immaculate Heart. Without this consecration, Russia will not be able to convert, nor the world have peace."
It seems clear that once properly consecrated there will be conversion and peace from the most critical seer of the 20th century.
Hannah thanks for your kind comments! Re the SSPX, Bishop Fellay said the ultimate aim is that they will no longer be necessary eventually. Anyhow as prophesied at Quito we will have a return of the traditional customs in the future.
Unfortunately obedience has become a murky issue given the stack of bishops against orthodox theology and liturgical sanity. Luckily we have 2000 years of tradition to help us navigate these times and see those things that are a rupture from the past; so it is a grace from the Lord that this has happened now opposed to earlier.
Jamey,
I'm no longer too sure about the Second Pentecost taking place after the martyrdom of a pope. I originally based this idea on St. John Bosco's Dream of the Two Pillars, which depicts a great Marian victory after the assassination of a pope. But there is the possibility this prophecy now belongs to the past. The Book of Revelation implies that the martyrdom of the Two Witnesses takes place after the Second Pentecost, at the beginning of the reign of the Antichrist. So chronologically speaking, it seems more logical that the Second Pentecost will take place before the martyrdom of the pope in the Third Secret.
That being the case, it seems more likely that the prophecies of a "great sign" by St. Faustina, Akita, etc. are related to the Second Pentecost.
Mary, if the "warning" that you mention is the same as the sign of the cross prophesied by St. Faustina, then I do believe that an event such as this will happen.
Jamey,
If you check out this video from Michael Voris he says the traditionalists will be the majority one day:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a8Y4Mf7bo3I
I just wanted to share since it fits well into the discussion. I can't wait til we're the majority. We'll have Cardinals Burke and Piacenza at our lead. ;) Too bad Cardinal Siri isn't here...
Anonymous,
I apologize if I sounded rude. I was very tired last night, but I'm sure you get what I'm trying to tell you.
God bless!
~Hannah
I think it's easy to take offense through the medium of the internet. Without face to face or verbal communication people can often get the wrong idea about or read too much into certain comments. I believe that's the main purpose of emoticons - but even they can fail to convey the true sense of a particular sentence or phrase. At the end of the day, we are all people of faith here, and even if there are some quibbles, I'm sure no one means harm or offense.
Jamey, I'd love to see you take up blogging too. You have so much knowledge to share...
Yeah, Jamey! Start a blog. Pretty please. ;) -chants- Jamey, Jamey, Jamey, Jamey! You can do it LOL. :D
God bless!
~Hannah
Hannah, you are a scream! Please don't make your stay here short like anon11 fame. If I do start a blog you will be the no 1 ticket holder.
Something I have noticed - recently I helped with a collection at a Novus Ordo Mass. I collected money from about 200 people - some are families so not every one of the 200 people contributed. What struck me when I emptied the bag, was the lack of contributions. There were a couple of fives and a ten, however the rest were small coins. All up for the collection there was probably no more than $50 for all those people. In contrast at the TLM or Ukrainian Catholic Mass there are mainly notes, people give more there as faith is stronger and I know many at our TLM parish are struggling large families. I think the donations or lack thereof are an indicator on the level of belief. Likewise the mass exodus during the final hymn or at the very end of the final hymn at the NO are a gauge of belief.
Cheers Emmett!
Something I was going to raise earlier:
So many prophecies indicate there will be the Great Chastisement by fire followed by a period of renewal. I am taking this literally now - it does raise a potentially problematic issue though, will there be two fires, one that almost destroys the world (Akita, Quito), and second that does destroy the world possibly at the end of time(2 Peter 3:10). However does 2 Peter 3:10 instead refer to the very end of the world or only to the Second Coming which you think may come well before the very end and the defeat of the Antichrist. In fact his Second Coming may begin in a more definitive manner when the Great Sign following the Great Chastisement.
Blessed Sr Aiello:
‘If men do not amend their ways, a terrifying scourge of fire will come down from Heaven upon all the nations of the world, and men will be punished according to the debts contracted with Divine justice. There will be frightful moments for all, because Heaven will be joined with the earth, and all the un-Godly people will be destroyed, SOME NATIONS WILL BE PURIFIED, WHILE OTHERS WILL DISAPPEAR ENTIRELY’.
So according to Blessed Elena Aiello some nations after this scourging of fire will be annihilated and others purified. Other nations being purified signals they will survive the chastisement. Quito and Akita refer to a similar scenario very clearly. Regarding the purification referred to by Sr Aiello perhaps this is not so much for a glorious long era of peace but a shorter era of peace and strengthening of faith for the final battle with the Antichrist. The Catholic Church will once again be militant and glorious against the son of perdition and his minions. If indeed the Lord's Second Coming is before the end of time, he will have a role and be present to us in a way we do not fully comprehend at the moment.
Emmett, I understand your interpretation is probably based on the unlikelihood of being two huge fires of sorts smashing the world in short time, and the verse from Peter. There is also the battle of Armageddon referred to in Revelation, which I will have to read more into to understand its place in the sequence of events.
"Hannah, you are a scream! Please don't make your stay here short like anon11 fame. If I do start a blog you will be the no 1 ticket holder."
Well now, you're one of the best persons on the internet! And don't you be giving us an IF! You WILL start a blog, if I have anything to do with it! ;-)
Miltonic,
Check out St. Faustina's diary, Divine Mercy in my soul. On page 42, verse 83, Jesus told her, "before I come as the just Judge, I am coming first as the King of Mercy."
Jesus explains the Warning to St. Faustina. You can read this knowing it was approved by the Church.
~ ~ ~
Anonymous', Miltonic, Emmett, everybody,
Bishops have been wrong sometimes in their decisions on private revelation. Divine Mercy was one and now Divine Mercy is an approved well known private revelation in which Our Lord describes the Great Warning.
Awhile back, I posted about the the Warning of Garabandal as explained to the seers at Heede.
Sharing, messages about the Great Warning. If everyone of these holy people have been misled by Satan, we don't have a chance.
Mary
+ + +
St. Edmund Campion referred to the Warning as “the day of change” when “the terrible Judge should reveal all men’s cons.
Blessed Anna Maria Taigi,
spoke of a great chastisement which would come to the world BEFORE which there would be an illumination of the conscience of men by which suddenly everyone would see themselves as God sees them. She indicated that this illumination of conscience would result in the saving of many souls because many would repent as a result of this "Warning" . . this miracle of "self illumination."
In a message at Heede, Germany
The Blessed Virgin Mary on November 1, 1937 appeared to four girls, and Jesus later appeared to them as well. Jesus said to them in one of the messages: "It will be terrible, a 'Minor Judgment.' I will make myself known to men. Every soul shall recognize Me as their God."
Jesus to Rosa Quattrini, San Daniano, Italy, April 5, 1968
“I will bring a great Light that will illuminate all the souls. But it will be too late for those who do not understand a Mother’s love. Everyone will be in the center of a grand judgment."
Maria Esperanza
Venezuela 1980
“The great moment of the Grand Day of Light is coming. The conscience of this dear people will be shaken violently so they can put their affair in order and offer to Jesus the just reparation for the infidelities committed day by day.”
Pedro Regis 12/8/2009
- "The day will come when people will receive a great Grace. A great miracle of God will transform hardened hearts. Each one will see his errors and will receive the Grace of repentance. It will be a great opportunity that The Lord will give to His wayward children."
Emmett:
"Mary, if the "warning" that you mention is the same as the sign of the cross prophesied by St. Faustina, then I do believe that an event such as this will happen."
_ _ _
Thanks Emmett, hi,
In Rev 1:7, it states, we will see him who we have pierced. I can think of two yet to be approved private revelations, American seers who were shown a similar vision as St. Faustina, Our Lord on the Cross in the sky.
Jennifer of wordsfromjesus.com
and Sadie Jaramillo.
Mary
p.s. Plus, Sadie heard...
+ + +
Conversion of St. Paul Was A Precedent of The Illumination
On January 25, 1996, Jesus told Sadie Jaramillo:
"The conversion of My Apostle Paul was a precedent set in My word. It was his experience of private revelation! As he was blinded by My light, he knew he could no longer deny the One whom he persecuted.
And now all will be caught in this moment of Mercy as My light reveals once again My persecution! For what is sin, no matter what kind, if not My persecution....
As you are illuminated in My light and this moment (that) will be just you and Me, you will see your persecution of Me, but even more you will see My great mercy and love. And this day, which will be to many as a night of terror, will pass and then many, for whom you and others have suffered, will be brought into the harvest... there yet remains the outpouring of Mercy BEFORE final justice..."
There is always a warning against false prophets. People seem to accept anything these days, and that makes me very wary.
So many prophecies indicate there will be the Great Chastisement by fire followed by a period of renewal. I am taking this literally now
Jamey - I don't know. Here we are being told by our illustrious blogmaster that we should take the 3 Days of Darkness as symbolic of what we're living through now, so it's hard to pick-and-choose what to look at literally. However, having said that...
Fire comes in many forms. One that strikes me as a spectacular "fire based" option would be a CME (Coronal Mass Ejection) from the sun. The EMP (Electro-Magnetic Pulse) would do a number on our precious electronics, thus chastising the more techno-advanced cultures and leaving pretty much the status quo in non-technical areas of the world.
But the thing is - it's not a chastisement if it's not obviously of Divine origin. If the connection isn't obvious, then it's just an unfortunate series of natural disasters. This is why I think there will be some kind of a warning or obvious connection before...whatever.
But the same essential impact can be had with an economic collapse too...just with less fire.
oh, and I monitor this for work:
http://www.spaceweather.com
"it's not a chastisement if it's not obviously of Divine origin"
So many questions Mark and that is a point I think worth exploring further. Why can't a chastisement be a permitted event (eg nuclear war)? The chastisement could be God removing his protection to the planet and leaving its leaders completely in the hands of satan and hence near total destruction.
Fr O'Connor thinks it will be a nuclear war permitted, because it will kill the good and the bad. He believed if it came directly from God he wouldn't kill the good (remember Akita: the good nor the bad will be spared). However if it is something permitted (such as a nuclear war) then it could take out the good. In Sodom and Gomorrah with the non manmade chastisement of fireballs raining from the sky, God told Lot and has family to get out of there before destroying the place with fire, so he spared them on that occasion.
The nuclear attack would explain why everything and everyone would be so desolate they would envy the dead, the physical side effects from the fallout as well as the loss of infrastructure that serves society; it would be utter anarchy and mayhem.
Saying that Sr Sasagawa said the Heavenly Father is "preparing" a huge chastisement - it sounds more than a permitted event. Likewise Quito and Sr Aiello don't say a physical war but fire from Heaven so it seems something like the CME you mention.
It is most likely a massive war (ie involving the Fatima 3rd Secret released in 2000) including nuclear attacks possibly followed by a fireball chastisement from Heaven itself. I do think those of us attuned to the times will be prepared but the "Sign" seems it will definitely come after the chastisement. Sr Sasagawa according to the holy Bishop John Ito had a very good memory. Anyhow go to the 6 min mark of the following video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oBna_X9YuGY
There seem areas where we have great certitude and I believe at the moment we are living through the chastisement of water as prophesied by Sr Aiello. If mankind doesn't repent she said there will be the Great Chastisement by fire.
It is tricky which we interpret symbolically or physically, since the chastisement refers to wiping out a large part of mankind I think it is definitely physical. The Marian apparitions tend to be very basic warnings that end up happening literally such as Kibeho and Sr Lucia's warnings re WW2 and even the changes to the liturgy.
"So according to Blessed Elena Aiello some nations after this scourging of fire will be annihilated and others purified. Other nations being purified signals they will survive the chastisement."
What about America, Jamey? You think we even stand a chance? Will we survive? This is the kind of thing I'll lie awake at night thinking about. This is Babylon and Sodom, isn't it?
Also, I think Bl. Elena said something about Rome being destroyed. So did Our Lady of LaSalette. Would that happen during this great fire. Should we even take that literally. I mean, what happens to the Pope and St. Peters etc? Is he supposed to move the Papacy (I think there was a discussion about this a few posts back. Don't remember).
God bless!
~Hannah
"There seem areas where we have great certitude and I believe at the moment we are living through the chastisement of water as prophesied by Sr Aiello."
I think you're right, Jamey! Just look at all the flooding these days...
Everybody,
Read this article: http://catholicmom.com/2013/07/09/the-great-battle-has-begun/
This is a MUST read! Thoughts from another mind!
Jamey – I don’t think we disagree. Is a nuclear exchange possible? Sure. I just think it’s a matter or probability rather than possibility. It could be a large rock from outer space – that would fulfill a lot of prophetic words. But I think the CME would serve a greater purpose.
First, let’s look at what happens after a CME. Any electrical devices that have current running through them are done for good. Many electrical things that are turned off but plugged in, would also be done for good. Many electrical devices that are turned off would be done for good, but there would be a high percentage of surviving things. No more trucks or trains. No more combines to till the fields. No more refrigeration to store food. No more pumps at the gas station. No transportation means no movement of drugs for addicts. The cities would become toxic within a week. The hinterlands would fare better, but even they rely on machines for things. The living might just envy the dead. In fact, it's possible that our undoing would be at our own hands, so that makes things a bit more harsh for the survivors to bear. But there would be survivors, and survivors are at least hinted at in Akita.
But a CME would permit the earth to continue spinning in much the same physical condition it’s in today. Fields could still be plowed, albeit with oxen. Water would be clean to drink. Humanity would be forced to live simply – forced to acknowledge where the chastisement came from – forced to rely on God’s providence again. We would be forced to remember Whom we have forgotten, and that is, after all is said and done, the point.
Nukes would create a situation where, ultimately, the living wouldn’t envy the dead because there wouldn’t be anyone living anymore. In a full exchange, North America, Europe, China and Russia, would likely all die for lack of food and clean water, if not from the nukes and radiation. A CME would be a great act of mercy, in that it would give the survivors a fighting chance. Besides, nukes are, shall we say, a bit obvious. So far, would you not agree that we’ve seen a great deal of subtly in the way things have played out? Especially if Emmett is right in all his analysis?
Whether the sign comes before or after isn’t really of consequence. What matters is that humanity see it and know where we stand and why. Without that, it will be explained away by some as mere coincidence.
My 2 cents. Worth everything you paid for it, to be sure.
Hannah –
In his address to Congress in 1862, after the Emancipation Proclamation, Lincoln said, “We shall nobly save, or meanly lose, the last best hope of earth.” This has always been a terribly poignant statement to me. We were once the last best hope. Now look at us. We are about to lose that last best hope. And those that rise to great heights, often fall hardest and farthest. I doubt very much that the Republic will survive. But likewise, I don’t doubt that there will be survivors. Why would I have such hope? Because there is still a fundamental goodness in many of our people, there is still decency here. It’s true, that our people and our government have soaked in sin for many years, but the gem inside our people is still there – it just needs a great deal of polishing, and I do not thing that we are up to that kind of polishing without the work and suffering that go along with it.
(If it’s not obvious enough, I am an American exceptionalist. We have, in the last three generations, scattered our heritage to the winds.)
Much will depend on how we react when the time comes; will we love our neighbor enough to help pull them out of a burning building, or will we shoot them to take their boots?
But I think we will suffer more than any other nation on earth, because we have fallen from a greater height. We deserve it. But take heart. I’m 52 years old – I have a daughter your age, one older, and one much younger. My generation really hasn’t had much say in the running of the world, but I think our time is about here. My generation will be a catalyst for yours. It will be your generation that makes us proud. My grandparents were the “greatest generation.” Your generation will be the greatest of the greatest.
I am no prophet. I have never had a locution or a vision. I do, however, practice lectio divina (I’m supposed to do it every day, but can’t always manage it).
I have, at times, asked specific things when I open my Bible to begin my lectio. Usually, and for years now, nothing happens. However, in the past 8 or 9 months, I’ve gotten some unusual things when I’ve reached for my Scriptures.
I was trying to figure out how all this would play out, and which private revelation was worthy of belief. In this context, I asked once if there would be a chastisement or not. I opened my Bible and my finger landed on Hosea 10:10.
I asked once what I would have to do to serve God when the chastisement comes. I got Isaiah 21:14-15.
I asked once if there would be war. I got Joel 3:9-12
I asked what I should do to prepare. I got Matthew 6:25-34.
In the first part of June this year, I asked when it would begin. I got Isaiah 21:16-17.
Of all the times I’ve done this over the past five years, I’ve gotten only 5 sensible answers. That’s what stands out to me. It doesn’t happen very often. Make of it what you will. Again, I’m no prophet, and most of these things can be seen by reading the signs of the times. I can’t really discern these as I’m too close, and I don’t want to be a false prophet, but thought you lot might find them interesting. If we get to early June next year and nothing has happened, then we know that it was an effort to mislead me.
And now, I leave you to go digging around in your Bible to figure out what I just said.
Mark,
I agree with everything you've said. I pray for this Country. We need to repent, or it will be too late. Our Lady of Akita said IF men do not repent. But, what do we do? Send our souls to Hell, murder our children, disobey all God's Commandments. It's got to change! I'm not looking forward to this suffering. I'm not looking forward to having to watch nations being destroyed, fire falling from the sky, people hanging on for life, the Pope dying, and who knows what else. This is my future? We server it. I know we do, but it's frightening. As Bl. Elena said, the world is hanging on by a thread and it's already started to tear...
"I’m 52 years old – I have a daughter your age, one older, and one much younger. My generation really hasn’t had much say in the running of the world, but I think our time is about here. My generation will be a catalyst for yours. It will be your generation that makes us proud. My grandparents were the “greatest generation.” Your generation will be the greatest of the greatest."
I'm 16 years old and just trying to figure this all out. How on earth am I supposed to prepare for all this? How am I supposed to prepare for the complete knock out of electricity, everything I've depended on? I have to learn how trust God now. I have so many thing I struggle with...
I'm glad you have hope in my generation. Means a lot! I hope we make you proud...I hope...
God bless!
~Hannah
KP says:
"Jamey already dissected the beginning of your argument, but I wanted respond to an interesting section of your argument."
KP, in order to believe Jamey's assertion that "the consecration being done isn't fact", one would have to believe that Sister Lucia, Father Fox, Archbishop Bertone, Cardinal Ratzinger, and Pope JPII were lying and/or involved in a massive conspiracy. Such an implication is baseless and gravely calumnious.
Jamey would rather have me believe Father Gruner (who the apostolic nuncio, Archbishop Gabriel Montalvo Higuera, has said is "not a priest in good standing with the Roman Catholic Church") and Malachi Martin (a laicized priest) versus Father Fox. I'll go with Father Fox every day.
Jamey would rather have me believe the assertions on Fatima made in a book written by Bob Sungenis (who believes that the Sun revolves around the Earth and isn't sure if we landed on the Moon) versus the written assertions made by Archbishop Bertone, Cardinal Ratzinger, Pope John Paul II and most importantly, by Sister Lucia herself in her own book (Fatima in Lucia’s Own Words) which categorically refute the assertions made by Father Gruner, Bob Sungenis and the rest of the Fatima conspiracy crowd regarding the Consecration and the Third Secret.
Then, KP, you say: "An English translation is never as authoritative as the original text. The fact that you'd even argue that is silly."
Are you seriously stating that the English translation of the Fatima message is incorrect? Are you seriously stating that the phrase that has been translated into English as "a period of peace" is incorrect? And you call me "silly"? LOL!!
Then, KP, you say: "Jamey already addressed this issue earlier. You ignored it and have yet to refute his argument."
Jamey didn't refute anything. He didn't even deal with the Request made by Our Lady of All Nations concerning the solemn Papal Definition of the Fifth Marian Dogma.
Anonymous,
Thanks.
I was not aware that Saint Faustina's Diary had a description of this Illumination of Conscience.
As for Garabandal, I have always looked more favorably on Garabandal than on Medjugorje, but I tend to ignore all unapproved private revelation and apparitions until such time as they are approved. But thanks for the info and I would just add that a universal illumination of conscience would indeed be a great act of Mercy, one the world is in dire need of right about now.
I am rather baffled by the arrogance of some of us to define Medjugorje as diabolical. I can't tell you how many friends and family members have truly received miracles, and unbelievable graces by visiting there. During the war, that small area miraculously was not touched. Benedict has visited a number of times, and has eagerly recommended it. Plenty of vocations have come through this Medjugorje. There are Bishops who have always been skeptical about apparitions, even with our very own Fatima. I think keeping an open heart to apparitions that may not be approved, but bring such love and peace should be embraced. And as for the SSPX, oh come on. I am a Traditionalist too, but the disobedience here is blatantly wrong. And why would anyone not believe in Garabandal's Warning and Miracle? Our very own Marian priest Fr Gobbi, Sr Faustina, Maria Esperanza, etc...spoke of this illumination of conscience. These were all very holy obedient Catholics. Are we that cynical today, that if it does not come out of our own intellect, it's not worth even praising it? Thank you Mary, for your sweet belief of faith in the Holy Spirit. And as for the consecration of Russia, it was done. We all saw the fruits with the fall of the Soviet Union. But like the Triumph of the Immaculate Heart of Mary it's not just one event, as if it were a magical trick. The Consecration to Russia, is an ongoing movement. Satan is still forming his cohort, well, so is Our Lady. And she is building her cohort in silence. It is the strength of her children of Marian priests, bishops, and the faithful that will bring her Triumph. Unbelievable, how some of you are missing such beautiful truths soon to happen. And the Warning and Miracle, through the Virgin of Carmel in Garabandal is truly miraculous.
Two things:
Hannah - One time I was praying about the USA and was deeply concerned about its future. Suddenly God the Father (not Our Lord or the Holy Spirit – for some reason I just knew it was the Father)encouraged me to read the story of Judith in the bible. The message is that when God’s people were on the point of being annihilated God sent Judith to deliver his faithful. Judith pre-figures Our Lady and the USA has been consecrated to her twice. I do believe that in the midst of the chastisement Our Lady will deliver and preserve a faithful remnant who will enter into the Era of Peace. Perhaps Hannah, you’ll be one of Our Holy Mother’s special children.
I’ve also been thinking a lot about George Washington’s alleged vision when he saw what would be the three great perils to the American Republic. Two have already passed (the War for Independence and the Civil War), but the worse is yet to come. Yes, I know Washington was a Mason, but by all accounts he was a deeply religious man and there is plenty of evidence that he developed a devotion to Our Lady and carried a picture of her on his person until the day he died. Some even say be became a Catholic on his deathbed. http://www.propheticroundtable.org/vision_of_george_washington.htm
Anonymous,
As baffling as it may be, some of us prefer to focus on approved private revelation and ignore the rest until such time as it is approved. That way, if a "popular" unapproved private revelation is eventually condemned as a hoax or a demonic deception, then we do not become disappointed.
It is also very dangerous to use the "fruits" of an alleged private revelation or apparition as the measure of authenticity. The Devil has no problem seeing a few postive "fruits" if in the end he can sow disobedience. Can you imagine what would happen if the Vatican eventually issues a final, negative judgement on Medjugorje and/or Garabandal. All those people who have put so much stock into those alleged apparitions would be very disappointed and much more easily tempted to disobedience.
That is why I focus on approved private revelations only. The majority of people that I know who follow the unapproved apparitions at Medjugorje and Garabandal can't tell you the first thing about the approved apparition of Our Lady of All Nations. They don't even know that Our Lady has requested that the Faithful Petition the Holy Father for the solemn declaration of the Fifth Marian Dogma in order that she be permitted to supernaturally intervene for Humanity in her role as Co-Redemptrix, Mediatrix and Advocate.
Mark, thanks for explaining that re the CME. So you think within a year? I have a certain idea why it could happen before then but 2017 also stands out for obvious reasons.
"Much will depend on how we react when the time comes; will we love our neighbor enough to help pull them out of a burning building, or will we shoot them to take their boots?"
Remember what happened in the New Orleans flooding: some real good, some real bad.
Hannah, in the end God's grace makes the most unbearable situations tolerable and even joyful especially when we have striven and attained a level of holiness and purification beforehand. The more purified we are before things hit, the less purification necessary when they do as God will give special graces at the time that comfort. The Nazi guard found the starved St Maximilian Kolbe in a state of ecstasy in the dungeon cell where he had been starved and amidst the stench of dead and rotting corpses. Fr Emil Kapuan was sent to die in a similar fashion in a building containing nothing but rotten dead bodies and those who saw him being sent there said he was in a state of profound peace.
As Mark said earlier the Sacraments, Scapular and Rosary! Pray and offer up suffering for all your loved ones and those you have ever known that have touched your life in some way, it is all worthwhile in the end. Attend the most reverent Masses you can find, even if it is Ukrainian or Melkite. Also maybe reading this blog right before bedtime is not a good idea :-)
Anon I believed in Medjugorje at one stage. I am of Croatian background so would be predisposed to being biased toward it. My family's homes are filled with Medjugorje statues, pictures, etc. However painful it is, read the entire story not just the fruits and then block your ears to the rest, indeed it is extremely disturbing. Our Lady of Medjugorje says the Consecration of Russia has been done, Fr Gobbi's sources say the opposite, who is right?
re the SSPX they have nutty elements within their parishes and probably to a large degree and I think Fellay is aware of this: there are people who deny baptism of desire, who think only salvation comes from a trad chapel. Indeed will there be much sanity upon the Lord's return, probably not. What could Lefebvre do - you had a pope praying with witchdoctors, drinking voodoo potion, receiving fecel annointings from shiva priestesses, praising "the profound religious " Martin Luther, and who was going to make the SSPX say a Mass which damages the Catholic faith, a Mass that the apostate Thomas Cranmer himself used to try destroy Catholic faith in England. There is canon law permitting certain acts for states of emergency and it isn't there for academic purposes.
Blessed Elena Aiello says some nations will be purified. Blessed Maria Taigi says "Russia, England, and China will come into the Church." Our Lady tells us that Russia will be converted once the Consecration done and there will be peace, those are things there are high levels of certitude and I think they are obviously linked. A number of prophecies converging.
Mark I do agree that the CME would be a great grace especially when compared to that of a nuclear war. I also believe it is quite critical when the Sign comes. As indeed it does seem linked to the beginning of the Second Pentecost. We are told from all the reputable prophecy (Quito, Akita, Blessed Elena Aiello, Blessed Anna Taigi) that there will be a chastisement by fire, a sign will appear, certain nations will be converted and there will be a revival of the Church and a return to its customs. If it occurs in this sequence the Great Chastisement will be happening in years rather than decades as Emmett thinks and we must prepare for that. Don't we all feel an alarming urgency?
God was already "too much offended" in the 1950's and even before. How much will his patience stretch that I am not sure, there are people performing penances, First Saturday devotions, perpetual adoration etc so exact timing isn't certain. Sr le Royer tells us 2 decades will not pass into the new millenium before there is serious wrath, how correct will she be?
Jamey, the consecration of Russia was done. What Fr Gobbi meant through his locutions was that "not all of her children as she asked in Fatima, have consecrated themselves to the Immaculate Heart." And this is true. According to Fr Gobbi, the act of consecration to the Immaculate Heart must always be RENEWED. I gather you don't agree with the sainthood of John Paul II. How sad. You know Pope's are human beings. They make mistakes, they're allowed. Watching Pope Benedict take a picture with Fidel Castro a few years ago, almost killed me. But I can't hold it against him. You shouldn't either when it comes to JP II. His dedication towards ending communism and avoiding a nuclear holocaust was brilliant! And as far as Medjugorje, I personally have never gone. And I don't expect everyone to believe it. It may be a trick from the devil. But who knows it is? If it has brought forth positive fruits, why accuse it of being diabolical? Where is the proof? Seriously, I would be interested to know the negatives. And, since you're Croatian, you may know more about it than I.
Anon I won't further derail the thread whether Russia has been Consecrated.
However the following explains Fr Gobbi's belief:
http://www.fatimacrusader.com/cr43/cr43pg28.asp
Re Medjugorje these articles present "some" of the issues of the other side:
http://www.theotokos.org.uk/pages/articles/medjugor.html
http://www.angelusonline.org/index.php?section=articles&subsection=show_article&article_id=1747
http://unamsanctamcatholicam.blogspot.com.au/2011/04/bishop-and-exorcist-andrea-gemma-on.html
Miltonic, I am reading about the Lady of All Nations. Thank you so much for this information. I had forgotten about this approved apparition. And strangely, it is never mentioned. The defining of the 5th Marian Dogma may be the most important of all messages. Again, I can't tell you if Medj is false, but I can definitely tell you Our Lady of All Nations is not. We should send petitions to Pope Francis!
Thank you Jamey, I just read about Fr Gobbi and his explanation towards the consecration of Russia. I agree. And now I understand where you are coming from. It was not done exactly how Our Lady wished, but nonetheless, Pope John Paul II was very close to her. She saved his life, and still helped him bring down communism in Russia. He was her Pope. And as far as Medjugorje, very weird. There have been quite a few inconsistencies, no doubt. How very unfortunate. And how sad, that Our Lady of All Nations has been ignored.
No worries Anon.
btw Siobhan great post.
Mark, thanks for explaining that re the CME. So you think within a year? I have a certain idea why it could happen before then but 2017 also stands out for obvious reasons.
Jamey – I’ve also had a very strong inclination towards 2017, but an equally strong feeling that we would start the process before that. Consider the 1260 days mentioned in Scripture and the important dates from Fatima. If you look at the end of the Fatima revelations – October 13, 2017 – as the beginning of the end, then the kickoff would be May 2, 2014. If you look at May 13, 2017, as the beginning of the end, then 1260 days prior to that is November 30 of this year. Interestingly, space.com says that Comet ISON may become the brightest comet ever seen from Earth around November 28 of this year. Space.nasa.gov says “On Nov. 28, 2013, this ‘dirty snowball’ will fly through the sun's atmosphere little more than a million km from the stellar surface. If the comet survives--a big IF--it could emerge glowing as brightly as the Moon, briefly visible near the sun in broad daylight. The comet's dusty tail stretching into the night sky could create a worldwide sensation.” (But then, some of us are old enough to remember Comet Kohoutek.)
To me, 2017 is when things are either at their worst or things are drawing to a close. I don’t think 2017 will be the beginning. But then, I’ve been wrong on most things lately.
To be honest, I don’t think the global economy will last a year anyway. If God doesn’t get us, the ghost of John Maynard Keynes will.
Hannah – Consider these when you struggle. Notice that patience is mentioned a few times. All are from St. Faustina’s diary:
“I promise that the soul that will venerate this image will not perish. I also promise victory over its enemies already here on earth, especially at the hour of death. I myself will defend it as My own glory.” (48)
“I do not reward for good results but for the patience and hardship undergone for My sake.” (86)
“My daughter, do not omit Holy Communion unless you know well that your fall was serious; apart from this, no doubt must stop you from uniting yourself with Me in the mystery of My love. Your minor faults will disappear in My love like a piece of straw thrown into a great furnace. Know that you grieve me much when you fail to receive me in Holy Communion.” (156)
“There is more merit in one hour of meditation on My sorrowful Passion than there is to a whole year of flagellation that draws blood; the contemplation of my painful wounds is of great profit to you, and it brings Me great joy.” (369)
“When one day I resolved to practice a certain virtue, I lapsed into the vice opposed to that virtue ten times more frequently than on other days. In that evening, I was reflecting on why, today, I had lapsed so extraordinarily, and I heard the words: You were counting too much on yourself and too little on Me. And I understood the cause of my lapses.” (1087)
“I have learned that the greatest power is hidden in patience. I see that patience always leads to victory, although not immediately; but that victory will become manifest after many years. Patience is linked to meekness.” (1514)
”…when a soul sees and realizes the gravity of its sins, when the whole abyss of the misery into which it immersed itself is displayed before its eyes, let it not despair, but with trust let it throw itself into the arms of My mercy, as a child into the arms of its beloved mother.” (1541) [This is not specifically in the context of a general illumination of conscience.]
“My daughter, I want to teach you about spiritual warfare. Never trust in yourself, but abandon yourself totally to My will. In desolation, darkness and various doubts, have recourse to Me … Do not bargain with any temptation; lock yourself immediately in My Heart and, at the first opportunity, reveal the temptation to the confessor. Put your self-love in the last place, so that it does not taint your deeds. Bear with yourself with great patience. Do not neglect interior mortifications. Always justify to yourself the opinions of your superiors and the confessor. Shun murmurers like the plague. Let all act as they like, you are to act as I want you to.
“Observe the rule as faithfully as you can. If someone causes you trouble, think what good you can do for the person who caused you to suffer. Do not pour out your feelings. Be silent when you are rebuked. Do not ask everyone’s opinion, but only the opinion of your confessor; be as frank and simple as a child with him. Do not become discouraged by ingratitude. Do not examine with curiosity the roads down which I lead you. When boredom and discouragement beat against your heart, run away from yourself and hide in My heart. Do not fear struggle; courage itself often intimidates temptations, and they dare not attack us.
“Always fight with the deep conviction that I am with you. Do not be guided by feeling, because it is not always under your control; but all merit lies in the will. … I will not delude you with prospects of peace and consolations; on the contrary, prepare for great battles. Know that you are now on the great stage where all heaven and earth are watching you. Fight like a knight, so that I can reward you. Do not be unduly fearful, because you are not alone.” (1760) [emphasis in italics are mine]
It made me do this in two parts.
“you shall accept all sufferings with love. Do not be afflicted if your heart often experiences repugnance and dislike for sacrifice. All its power rests in the will, and so these contrary feelings, far from lowering the value of the sacrifice in my eyes, will enhance it.” (1767)
[I typed all this myself, so please forgive any format errors or errors with html tags. Don't have time to proof just now.]
"To me, 2017 is when things are either at their worst or things are drawing to a close. I don’t think 2017 will be the beginning."
Fr Malachi Martin indeed if he was genuine and read the 3rd Secret believed things would be finished by 2017 similar to Sr le Royer who said 2 decades will not pass in this century without judgement. Emmett has quoted scripture in that God will cut the Great Apostasy short for the sake of the elect, given the apostasy started in the mid 60's and there is a biblical notion of apostasy (I think from Daniel) that lasts 70 years it is a possibility our current apostasy will be less than this so that gives 2017 a very decent possibility from such an angle. The world's moral situation and those lightning bolts on st Peters Basilica add weight to the argument.
Re the world economy my cousin who manages a small hotel in Vodice Croatia said the other day he hasn't been paid for 4 months! Many are in the same boat there but too scared to leave in that they may never have a job again and in the hope one day they will be paid. I have often thought a worldwide economic collapse would be the catalyst for the rise of the Antichrist and the mark of the beast as Emmett says but given so many prophecies indicate there will be renewal and an era of peace this may well be a way of yet.
Some serious spiritual gold there from St Faustina's diary, cheers for sharing that.
Great comments everyone!
Let me try to catch up here.
Miltonic said: "...I tend to ignore all unapproved private revelation and apparitions until such time as they are approved."
Good for you!
Anonymous said: "I am rather baffled by the arrogance of some of us to define Medjugorje as diabolical."
Well, it's not just us. Bishop Gemma (btw, glad you brought him up, Jamey. I remember reading this), who is a exorsist, said it's diabolic. What do you have to say to that? A certain Man named Jesus once said something I take very seriously. He who hears you (His Bishops) hears me and he who reject you (His Bishops), rejects me.
Siobhan said: "Perhaps Hannah, you’ll be one of Our Holy Mother’s special children." I hope so. I'm not worthy. I shall try to be worthy.
I'm glad you brought up the vision of George Washington. It sure is interesting. I read it from time to time, trying to understand it.
Miltonic said: "As baffling as it may be, some of us prefer to focus on approved private revelation and ignore the rest until such time as it is approved. That way, if a "popular" unapproved private revelation is eventually condemned as a hoax or a demonic deception, then we do not become disappointed."
Exactly! Just my thoughts! So many people put so much faith into Medjugorje, I shudder to wonder what would happen if it was condemned. I've talked to people who are just crazy about it. I mention the Bishops and some of the problems with it and they look at me like I'm crazy. People need to study the apparition in depth as I have.
Jamey said: "As Mark said earlier the Sacraments, Scapular and Rosary! Pray and offer up suffering for all your loved ones and those you have ever known that have touched your life in some way, it is all worthwhile in the end. Attend the most reverent Masses you can find, even if it is Ukrainian or Melkite. Also maybe reading this blog right before bedtime is not a good idea" :-)
Thanks for the encouragement. I love the Mass and Confession. I avail myself of them as often as I can. I don't know what I would do without them. As well as the Rosary, too. And yes, I won't be reading late at night anymore! You all probably think I'm crazy reading a blog like this anyway!! :) I can bet I'm the youngest here. :D
Jamey said: "However painful it is, read the entire story not just the fruits and then block your ears to the rest, indeed it is extremely disturbing."
Indeed it is. I studied this when I was a kid (just converted) with my Dad and we came to the conclusion it's not of God. I said nothing about the fruits. They're great, but have nothing do with whether the apparition is of God. I'm glad you brought up those articles, too. People need to get their head out of the sand and look at the truth.
Mark said: "Interestingly, space.com says that Comet ISON may become the brightest comet ever seen from Earth around November 28 of this year."
Interesting connection, Mark! I've been wondering about that comet.
And thank you for the quotes from St. Faustina's Diary! That must have took some time. That means a lot. I will be reflected on them. Thank you!!
Keep the Faith, people! :)
God bless!
~Hannah
"Fr Malachi Martin indeed if he was genuine and read the 3rd Secret believed things would be finished by 2017 similar to Sr le Royer who said 2 decades will not pass in this century without judgement. Emmett has quoted scripture in that God will cut the Great Apostasy short for the sake of the elect, given the apostasy started in the mid 60's and there is a biblical notion of apostasy (I think from Daniel) that lasts 70 years it is a possibility our current apostasy will be less than this so that gives 2017 a very decent possibility from such an angle. The world's moral situation and those lightning bolts on st Peters Basilica add weight to the argument."
Your're such a genius, Jamey! Seriously! I never thought of that 70 years part. From 1960-2020 is 70 years. That fits perfectly into what we're talking about. The Great apostasy has been so massive. It's hard to live in a world like this. I've been living in this world for 16 years. There's evil everywhere and it's so easy to be caught up in it. So easy. The world and the Church needs some serious purification. To think it's so close, is hard to believe. I believe it, though. This blog has helped me to see this. Thanks so much to you and Emmett and all the great commentors!
God bless!
~Hannah
…given the apostasy started in the mid 60's…
I’ve done a lot of research on the history of this. Here’s an analogy for you to ponder. Think of the great apostasy as a bomb. The bomb itself was placed in the early 20th century. The fuse was lit between 1935 and 1945. The bomb actually exploded in the mid-1950’s. What happened in the 60’s was the beginning of the shock wave from the explosion, and we’re still living those shock waves.
Paul VI, John XXIII, bishop Russell, Cardinals Spellman and Ottaviani, were all ordained between 1901 and 1924. This is the placement of the bomb.
Bugnini, Schillebeeckx, Rahner, Casaroli, and a planted communist agent named Tondi, were all ordained between 1925 and 1939. These represent the fuse, given that it took time for them to reach power. Spellman was raised to bishop in 1932. Saul Alinsky was a contemporary to this group. Unsubstantiated allegations suggest that as many as 1100 communist agents entered seminaries in the United States between 1930 and 1939. The number of infiltrators is in question, not the fact that the infiltration took place.
O’Conner, Bernardin, Sodano, Weakland, Hans Kung, Malachi Martin, were all ordained or came of age between 1940 and 1955. Between 1956 and 1965 we get Law, Mahony, Egan, Rigali, Daneels, and the likes of John Geoghan. The earlier group starts to become bishops in the mid-60’s, with Bernardin himself being elevated in 1966. With these two groups came the writings of Frank Marshall Davis (communist mentor of Barak Obama), James Pike (derailed the Episcopal church in the US), and Cloward & Piven (promoters of communism in general). This group represents the explosion to me. These men are the smoke that entered the sacristy, and the writers that broadened the appeal, so to speak. This is where it all began.
They brought with them a great host of allies. The largest number of confirmed abusive priests in Boston were ordained between 1960 and 1969. The ordination of these men, and others scattered around the planet from the same era, represent the results of the explosion – the fruits, if you will. The infiltration of Holy Mother Church between 1930 and 1965 is the action. The abusive priests – and even Vatican II – are the shockwave from that explosion.
Fr Malachi Martin indeed if he was genuine and read the 3rd Secret believed things would be finished by 2017
I discount Malachi Martin, but I always keep his ideas in the back of my mind as something of an enigma. My degree is in history, so I look at source material from a historian’s point of view. While Fr. Martin was in the right place at the right time, he’s also been wrong on a couple things and has never been corroborated by another witness (that I know of). He had some theological statements that seem goofy at least (Satan and Lucifer are different fallen angels). But his testimony is fascinating. He did an interview in December of 1997. In that interview he said we did not have 20 years left.
Very interesting, Mark. Thanks for that analysis.
I keep those men you mentioned in my prayers every day. I have a strong reverence for the Priesthood and it pains me that these men infiltrated the Church to do so much damage. Sometimes I ask "Why"? Why did this all have to happen? Why did these Bishops and Priests want to damage the Church so much? However, they still have the indelible mark of the Priesthood on their souls forever. I pray for their conversion and for those already deceased, for their souls. We, as Catholics, have an obligation to do this.
I like the analogy of the bomb. Is everyone a genius here? ;)
I learn so much from this com box.
God bless!
~Hannah
Hannah – Allow me to give you some paternal advice (which, since I’m not your father (but old enough to be!), is probably worth what you’ve paid for it…nothing).
Once upon a time, St. Francis of Asisi was hoeing a garden. Some people came up and asked him, “If Christ returned today, what would you do?” Francis stopped briefly and said, “I would keep hoeing the garden.” He then went back to work. The point is, that was his task at the time. He felt that he best served God’s will by continuing the simple work he had started.
The same goes for you and me. Don’t obsess on this stuff. Read the signs of the times, learn what you can, but don’t let it take over. Keep doing everything you should be in your life – school, family, whatever. Keep hoeing your own personal garden. Let the future worry over itself. Follow God’s will and you’ll be fine.
And yes, this is easier said than done.
Thank you for the advice, Mark. I will keep praying for and loving Holy Mother Church, too.
God bless!
~Hannah
Good advice Mark, and thanks for the St. Francis memory. It is probably wise for us to dwell in God's promise rather than fire and floods. We should care about the young'uns who listen in. The schools have already scared them half to death with climate change, ozone holes, and polar bears.
Hannah. I recommend you read Stephen's (Rachmaninov)book, "Heralds of the Second Coming" particularly what JPII says about the night watchmen. I agree with Mark that your generation will be the ones who stay awake through the night. JPII also always hearkened back to the words of Christ, "Be not afraid." You were born to have a wonderful life, in this world and the next (I know you already know this). Live your dreams, plan your life, receive the joy that comes with the beauty of creation.
Jamie. I enjoy all your insight and wisdom immensely. I always learn something new when I read your comments, and I can't wait for your blog. There is a "but". : ) I wish you wouldn't speak so unkindly toward the late popes. I'm sure they had their faults, but I think we all generally loved and respected them. Pope John Paul II is one of my heroes; Pope Paul VI gave us Humanae Vitae and prophesied accurately about the institution of artificial birth control. He was the pope of my childhood, and my saintly Italian grandmother loved him.
Emmett, awesome topic as usual! I really appreciate your scholarship.
Tom
"There are Bishops who have always been skeptical about apparitions, even with our very own Fatima. I think keeping an open heart to apparitions that may not be approved, but bring such love and peace should be embraced. And as for the SSPX, oh come on. I am a Traditionalist too, but the disobedience here is blatantly wrong. And why would anyone not believe in Garabandal's Warning and Miracle? Our very own Marian priest Fr Gobbi, Sr Faustina, Maria Esperanza, etc...spoke of this illumination of conscience. These were all very holy obedient Catholics."
+ + +
Thank you Anonymous.
And Bishops have been WRONG on private revelation. The yet to be approved speaks of some not all, the falling down of Our Lord's consecrated ones. The world goes further away from God more than at any other time in history, we see it in the daily instant news. We are closer to God intervening. Do we have to wait for these messages to be approved? No. Monsignor Esseff says if private revelation strengthens your faith, believe.
Yet to be approved private revelation confirms the approved. How about the quotes describing everyone seeing their sins from saints who are declared BLESSED? This is the Great Warning. Why no problem with accepting the prophesied Great Miracle and the Chastisement? Believe in the Great Warning too and the sequence of the end times made explicit in private revelation lines up.
God brought about Conchita's Eucharistic miracle at Garabandal. Satan would never do this, mimic the Real Presence. Satan has his evil followers desecrate consecrated hosts.
There are theologians who are holy priests who believe in the yet to be approved. I am thinking of Father Iannuzzi and Monsignor Esseff. Both of them are going to be speaking at a Marian Conference soon but it is too far away for me to attend, darn.
Mary
"Your're such a genius, Jamey! Seriously! I never thought of that 70 years part."
That was Emmett's genius but if I have to take the credit for it then so be it :-)
"Very interesting, Mark. Thanks for that analysis."
x2
Mark that was a brilliant summary and some excellent insight has been provided. I thought Ottaviani was orthodox?
Tom, it is painful criticizing popes it is like criticizing ones own father and I try to keep it in context especially regarding the Great Apostasy.
Also I wouldn't describe B16 as a traditionalist theologically but I love the man big time - he seems almost an angel walking in a humans body. In fact Lefebvre himself when dealing with then Cardinal Ratzinger in the late 80s would be extremely upset at times and with emotion would speak ill of him in evenings only to wake up the next morning and tell fellow priests what he said was excessive and exaggerated and that the Cardinal had great piety. Then Cardinal Ratzinger wept when the excommunications happened in 88. I don't think B16 was concerned about being popular and it was not about his personality one iota hence we got SP and the lifting of SSPX excommunications without them needing to make a formal repentance as normally required with the removal of an excommunication. When I talk about politicians at the Vatican I don't mean the popes btw. Thanks for your kind comments and God Bless.
You're right, Jamey. Ottaviani was orthodox. I was in a hurry. In fact, Ottaviani identified Rahner for who he was long before anyone else realized. He also was there, in some way, with Lefebvre when the original complaints against the NO Mass were written. I don't recall exactly what he did with that, but he was far more on Lefebvre's side than Rahners.
My mistake. Gotta be more careful when I'm in a hurry.
Miltonic,
"to believe Jamey's assertion...Pope JPII were lying"
This is a straw man argument. As I said, there has been conflicting information regarding the consecration. That includes Sr Lucia AFTER the 84 consecration. Even Pope John Paul II stated that releasing the third secret wouldn't be wise to release the third secret. It's not lying, it's called mental reservation.
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/10195b.htm
http://www.catholic.com/magazine/articles/is-lying-ever-right
The Catechism's definition of lying, paragraph 2483: "To lie is to speak or act against the truth in order to lead into error SOMEONE WHO HAS THE RIGHT TO KNOW THE TRUTH"
The Holy See could very well have discerned that the entire world doesn't have the right to know the full Third Secret and could have justifiably acted upon mental reservation.
So the rest of your argument is null and void.
"Jamey would rather have me believe the assertions on Fatima made in a book written by Bob Sungenis (who believes that the Sun revolves around the Earth"
First and foremost, this is a logial fallacy called an irrelevant appeal. Bob Sungenis beliefs regarding science are irrelevant to the truth or falsity of his claims regarding Fatima.
http://www.logicalfallacies.info/relevance/appeals/
Bob Sungenis may be off on science-- but he's doing it in defense of the Church. Like it or not, the Church did thing Galileo was wrong.
The Church never claims to have authority on things such as art or science. It only has infallible authority on faith and morals.
But the reality is that Bob Sungenis is a far better theologian and apologist than you or I ever will be.
But more importantly than following your red herring irrelevant appeal, Bob Sungenis actually backs up his assertions with documentation.
"versus the written assertions made by Archbishop Bertone, Cardinal Ratzinger, Pope John Paul II and most importantly, by Sister Lucia herself in her own book"
This is a false dichotomy. It isn't Bob Sungenis vs the Holy-Guys-that-you-like. Bob Sungenis takes their own published words and shows that they've contradicted themselves. As usual the media only reports on the parts that fit their narrative. But the true story is more nuanced than the media will tell you.
And again, the false dichotomy only holds if the Vatican is not purposely holding mental reservation on the third secret. And why wouldn't they? Every confession has, by canon law, mental reservation attached to it. Even if you steal a candy bar from a store the Church enforces mental reservation. How much more would mental reservation be applied if something truly horrible was within the third secret, as JPII had alluded to?
"Are you seriously stating that the English translation of the Fatima message is incorrect?"
Yes. Theology 101, always read the text in its original language. Always understand that translations are not as authoritative as the original text.
Do you think if Pope Francis had both the original text and the English translation on his desk, he would hold the English translation as the higher authority? Of course not.
But onto a more important part of the argument...
Speaking of Ottaviani and Fatima, etc. has anyone seen Dr. Franco Adessa's
Testimony? What do you think? I am amazed that more people are not putting this out there because it is very interesting!
http://dominiestemp.blogspot.com/2013/06/the-third-secret-of-fatima-new-evidence.html?m=1
Carol
"Are you seriously stating that the phrase that has been translated into English as "a period of peace" is incorrect?"
Yes and no. All Private Revelation must be seen through the lens of Public Revelation, and not vice versa. Isaiah 65:17-25 gives a clear description of the New Heavens and New Earth, and uses Temporal language to discuss Eternity. If one read Isaiah 65:17-25 literally, one would conclude all sorts of crazy things, suh as people dying in Heaven, people living as long as trees, etc.
"Judgment and Salvation. . . New Heavens and a New Earth
17 “See, I will create
new heavens and a new earth.
The former things will not be remembered,
nor will they come to mind.
“Never again will there be in it
an infant who lives but a few days,
or an old man who does not live out his years;
THE ONE WHO DIES AT A HUNDRED
will be thought a mere child;
THE ONE WHO FAILS TO REACH A HUNDRED
will be considered accursed.
FOR LIKE THE DAYS OF A TREE,
SO WILL BE THE DAYS OF MY PEOPLE;
my chosen ones will long enjoy
the work of their hands.
23 They will not labor in vain,
nor will they BEAR CHILDREN doomed to misfortune;
Scripture almost always uses Temporal language when discussing Eternity. This particular passage discusses death in Heaven. It also compares lifespan in Heaven to the age of a tree-- which is nowhere near eternal.
So to simply say that the term "era" is used, therefore it must be interpreted literalistically and can't be referring to Eternity is just absurd. Almost everything in the Scriptures regarding Eternity is given in allegorical and Temporal language.
"And you call me "silly"? LOL!!"
Yes, because all of your arguments are fallacious. You don't discern the difference between lying and mental reservation, you don't understand that you're using false dichotomies, irrelevant appeals, and straw man arguments. You only listen to half of what the media reports on various issues, and ignore the aspects that don't fit the medias narrative, even when they're documented.
"Jamey didn't refute anything. He didn't even deal with the Request made by Our Lady of All Nations concerning the solemn Papal Definition of the Fifth Marian Dogma."
Insist that Jamey didn't refute what you've said. Like it or not, he did.
But Our Lady of All Nations is not approved. This is from the Vatican.va website:
"the Bishop of the Diocese of Haarlem (Netherlands), following on a careful examination of the case concerning the supposed apparitions and revelations of "Our Lady of All Nations", declared that he "found no evidence of the supernatural nature of the apparitions". . . AT THE PRESENT TIME, FOLLOWING ON FURTHER DEVELOPMENTS AND AFTER A FRESH AND DEEPER EXAMINATION of the case, the Sacred Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith CONFIRMS BY THE PRESENT NOTIFICATION THE JUDGMENT ALREADY EXPRESSED by the competent ecclesiastical authority, and invites priests and laity to DISCONTINUE ALL FORMS OF PROPAGANDA WITH REGARD TO THE ALLEGED APPARITIONS AND REVELATIONS OF "OUR LADY OF ALL NATIONS."
http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_19740525_signora-amsterdam_en.html#sthash.fsdAV9RB.dpuf
Thanks for the text Carol. Hope your text didn't got lost between my two large posts.
I'm checking out the information. Quite interesting. I wonder how true this is and if the information is reliable.
http://www.novusordowatch.org/chiesa-viva-462.pdf
Here is the direct link to the chiesa viva article which contains Adessa's testimony about the third secret
Carol
You're welcome KP. I wonder about the reliability as well but I do think there is something to this bc of the similarities between Nues Europa and the Akita message which came later. I would love to ask Dr. Adessa some questions. There is an email address on the magazine cover. Maybe I should try that,..
agreed Carol I often thought neues europa contained some truth as it contained info approved later in Akita. Will comment later tonight when at home on the road atm. I have some concerns re Fr Villa but not certitude either way.
Sent from mobile phone
Hi everybody! Mary I totally agree with you on Garabandal. Conchita lives in Long Island today, and she is as wonderful as ever. And Mark, you are phenomenal! Clearly, you know exactly what happened to the Church through the evil of atheistic communism. The infiltration creeped into the Church in the late 30's, and finally blossomed in the 60's. It was those same type of Bishops who advised JP II that the declaration of the 5th Marian dogma was not necessary. I think it's fun to try to intellectually figure out Revelations, but it's such a Protestant fervor. I think some of you are so focused on this, that your missing the big picture. And both Mark and Mary get it. You can't figure out Revelations without knowing history, and having faith in the supernatural. It's the Woman who ends up crushing the serpent. Through her and only through her, will we be able to unveil the mystery. But Satan, has infiltrated our own Church, and some of these Bishops work against her. These Bishops have attacked the Catholic Church by ignoring some of the most important apparitions from Our Lady. Please don't fall for these tactics. Listen to the messages. KP, you are most definitely wrong on the apparition of Our Lady of the Nations. When the locutions began in 1945 to 1959, Our Lady's predictions of world events, as well as, geopolitics have been intensely accurate. She has tried to warn us through the Church, but she has been blocked, so she appears to those who are humble enough to spread her message. Unfortunately, not everyone is listening, some are too busy analyzing Revelations. Wake up! Communism strives to entice the multitudes by trickery of various forms, hiding its real design behind ideas that in themselves are good and attractive. Studying Revelations is interesting, but not where it's at. Please let's not fall for this. We need a unity among Catholics. Spreading dissension against our Pope's, or apparitions that may not be approved, but are not against Church doctrine is so silly. For some are missing the answers to our questions in these apparitions. It blows my mind how right Our Lady of the Nations was back in 1945. She has warned us of a 3rd global catastrophe worse than than the 2 World Wars if we do not listen to her messages. Why not listen? In Georgetown University Dr. Richard L. Russell who is professor of National Security Affairs and a Security advisor in Washington believes in this apparition. His latest book is called, "Mother of All People's." His speech on this is very interesting. www.youtube.com/watch?v=qqIiX_LpBuA
Whatever the final outcome for the events at Medj it certainly shines a light on a great deal of what's happened and happening in the Church and the world.
It takes place in a little land sandwiched between Bosnia where the First World War started and Serbia where the First World War started. It is sandwiched between the hideousness of both Communism and Nationalism. These things help bring about the Second World War.
Meanwhile the events start just as the first generation on poorly or non catechised Catholics enter the world, facing the Cold War, which came out of the two world wars, and the constant threat of nuclear war.
We didn't know who God was and couldn't find Him.
We had also seen our bishops abandon their role to become bureaucrats.
So we flocked after the apparations of Medj and their promise that God was with us after all and had sent His mother to care for us poor orphaned children. I don't doubt that the Gospa's promise there would ne no WWIII helped this.
Then the bishop of Mostar condemned it.
But we had all seen that bishops can't be trusted. They had abandoned the flock to the wolves and to wander in strange spiritual lands. So when the pro-Medj voices were raised against the bishop it was easy to see this as reasonable.
Meanwhile this site and it's events drowned out the voices from approved apparitions.
It's easy to see why starved people will "take the soup" so to speak of an apparent miracle and presence of Our Blessed Mother.
Once I had a grasp on my faith and had discovered approved apparitions like Divine Mercy, Fatima, Kibeho and Our Lady of All Nations, I saw that God sent His and Our Blessed Mother to us and most of all He asks for obedience.
When a bishop condemns we should obey even if we think the bishop is a bad person or could be wrong. We should stay away out of obedience.
I'm just at the end of Fr Bessieres' book (Fr Rigby's translation) on Bl. Anna-Maria Taigi and just like with other seers and prophets obedience is the most important thing.
Many of you have noted the fall out from the "bomb" that has given us less than marvelous bishops and some downright wolves in the clergy.
We have to start healing these wounds. People will not abandon Medj when they think it's all they have.
We need to give them real food, real hope.
Shell
Shell, interesting analysis on Medj and you may be right. But Divine Mercy is not the right food. The messages are false. Once you hear of a message against Church doctrine, it's false. Divine Mercy is filled with heresy.
Our Lady of the Nations has been approved. Divine Mercy has not.
"I think it's fun to try to intellectually figure out Revelations, but it's such a Protestant fervor."
Interesting to find you here then and giving your own interpretation of things. Some comments here have been gold in comedy value.
Anon, I think Shell is referring to St Faustina and Divine Mercy, not MDM.
"But Our Lady of All Nations is not approved. This is from the Vatican website..: http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_19740525_signora-amsterdam_en.html#sthash.fsdAV9RB.dpuf"
First I have seen this, then the 2002 decision of the bishop needs to be clarified surely that is in force and the above should be pulled given its date? Also all messages of approved apparitions should be checked out and corrected by the Church. Malachi Martin said there was supposedly a grace that the Church would lose as God's punishment on it, one thing that comes to mind is pure and utter confusion, very little clarification or confidence and hence no decisions are made. Hasn't Medj been investigated since 09? With the speed of information flow in this day and age, and the amount of information available, a decision should have been made by now but it will rock the boat either way. Many of these modern apparitions condemn themselves.
My 5c worth on the "new evidence" of this Third Secret. I will paste the alleged prophecy and then some thoughts below each part.
“A great chastisement will fall on the entire human race; not today as yet, not tomorrow, but in the second half of the Twentieth Century.”
So this didn’t happen in that time. If Fr Villa was making stuff up and a fraud then he would have likely changed the timeframe. However given it didn’t come to pass it does bring up questions and is the biggest negative against this being true. Time is tricky in prophecy, I wonder if in fact there have been genuine approved apparitions/visions that occurred but not in the time said but just slightly out? Even scripture and something often alluded to by Michael Brown of Spirit Daily warns us prophecy is imperfect.
However see the last paragraph in which it could be this is still the genuine unreleased portion of the Third Secret. Also the end of the 20th century has been mentioned in many prophecies genuine and probably diabolical.
In this thread itself, Sr LeRoyer:
But what I saw, it is that if the judgment arrived in the century of 1900, it would come only towards the end, and that if the world exceeds this century, the first two decades of the century of 2000 will not pass without the judgment intervening, as I saw it in the light of God."
“No longer does order reign anywhere and Satan will reign over the highest places directing the course of events. He (Satan) really will succeed in infiltrating to the top of the Church.”
This coincides with Cardinal Ciappi’s comments of apostasy starting from the top. So Satan will infiltrate to the top of the church it says – is this through sheer diabolical attack on the minds of the pontiffs through the permissive will of God? Malachi Martin alluded it would be a pope under the complete control of Satan.
“Also for the Church a time of Her greatest trials will come. Cardinals will oppose Cardinals; Bishops will oppose Bishops”
Akita. Bishop Ito said Akita and the Third Secret were the same. He would have had contact with then Cardinal Ratzinger when investigating Akita to make such a statement. Furthermore he was told by then Ratzinger to spread the message of Akita and said this himself on EWTN. Bishop Ito was a very holy bishop.
“and Satan will march amid their ranks, and in Rome there will be changes.”
Indeed there has been changes but the prophecy here is after the fact, not that this debunks it.
“What is rotten will fall, and what will fall will never rise again.”
Praise God.
“The Church will be darkened and the world deranged by terror. A great war will break out within the second half of the Twentieth Century.”
So a massive war will break out. Related to the bishop in white being martyred?
“Fire and smoke will fall from Heaven, the water of the oceans will become vapors and the foam will rise up flooding and sinking everything.”
This sounds like a supernatural event as we have discussed in these comments. SO it will be after or during the physical war as speculated earlier in the comments. So war immediately followed by a supernatural chastisement.
“Millions and millions of people will die by the hour and the survivors will envy the dead.”
I seem to remember reading something like this before….
“Death will reign everywhere for the errors committed by the foolish and by the partisans of Satan, who, then and only then, will reign over the world. At last, those who will survive all of these events will once more proclaim God and His Glory and serve Him like before, when the world was not so corrupted.”
So the Second Pentecost or Era of Peace as prophesied elsewhere.
Emmett, sorry to keep going against the grain in this thread, but perhaps in reality the Holy See waited until the 20th century was out and then released only one half of the Third Secret once they figured this war and chastisement didn’t transpire as predicted. This would be supported by Cardinal Ratzinger saying these visions of the Third Secret may have been something that were conjured up in the imagination of Sister Lucy, based on what she earlier in her life had encountered in reading pious books.
This message is 20 lines, I think it has been said the unreleased portion of the Third Secret is in fact 20-25 lines of text. The fact it sounds much like Akita which has been approved and Sr Sasagawa a lady of great and undoubted holiness gives some weight. I often thought the Neues Europa article had portions of the real secret leaked to the media (I mentioned that here a yr or two ago) and this person is saying Cardinal Ottaviani himself (I would dare say with the ok from the Holy See) leaked portions to hopefully avoid nuclear war at that particular time (in fact when did the Vatican denounce Neues Europa?) but the Vatican wanted to save face in the future in case “they were merely the imagination of Sr Lucia”. There are obvious questions such as whether there is any third party proof of Fr Villa being commissioned by Ottaviani, how credible is Fr Villa overall, who is this Mr Franco Adesso, etc. Personally I wouldn’t be surprised if this is the "Fourth Secret".
Thoughts?
Also just to add to previous comment "all messages of approved apparitions should be checked out and corrected by the Church." I meant corrected only when deemed necessary such as Our Lady of All Nations in the instance when the seer thought she heard "who once was Mary".
Whoops, sorry Anonymous - I meant St Faustina and Divine Mercy, not the other one which I know is condemned but nothing else about it.
Thanks Jamey for clarifying!
Shell
Maria Divine Mercy's messages do not go against the Church's doctrine. Dr. Kelly Bowring explains this in his new book, THE GREAT BATTLE HAS BEGUN. He has all the credentials to explain that these urgent messages are not heresy. These messages will come to fruition even before the Church can approve of the messages. The fact that the bishops in Ireland allow these messages to be spread should encourage all to read them and pray for discernment about them.
This text is interesting.
Here's what I thought:
"A great chastisement will fall on the entire human race; not today as
yet, not tomorrow, but in the second half of the Twentieth Century."
Could this also mean the 'tribulation' after Vatican II? I don't think anyone mentioned that here. You could say that was a Chastisement on the Church. As for the Chastisement on the world, it hasn't happened...
The whole thing is interesting though...
God bless!
~Hannah
Jamey,
Thanks for commenting on the third secret testimony. All I know about Dr. Franco Adessa is that he worked with Father Villa and that he has written for Chiesaviva magazine like in the link of the article I posted. He has also written on Fr. Villa's life and life's work fighting ecclesiastical masonry and he has also written about Masonic symbols that were placed in a recently built church dedicated to St. Padre Pio. Also Dr. Adessa is connected with the Apostolate of Our Lady of Good Success in some way because they promote Chiesaviva On their website. Our Lady of Good Success is the only Marian approved apparition I know of which explicitly condemns ecclesiastical freemasonry.
One of the things I find interesting is that when asked about the third secret in the early 1980s pope John Paul II said in Fulda that the secret related to oceans flooding entire continents.(I am paraphrasing). This is very similar to this new evidence. I think that the reason this was not revealed earlier could be that the Vatican hierarchy did not want anyone to know that Satan was controlling many events at the top, of course...
Carol
Hannah,
That is a great point.
The Vatican so disoriented to VII and awaiting the new springtime are thinking this great chastisement referred in the first sentence is a physical war but instead it is spiritual and on the Church itself. Sr Lucia herself said in 1958 or 1959 that chastisement from Heaven was imminent! I think that was referring to VII. Worse than a world war is the spiritual decimation of the Catholic Church. Eventually everything goes to hades when the Catholic Church is no chop. Then later the physical chastisement follows the spiritual.
The first half or so of the message seems to concern the spiritual state of the Catholic Church then, whilst the second part the world at large and physical chastisements.
"The Church will be darkened and the world deranged by terror. A great war will break out within the second half of the Twentieth Century."
It is at this point that the message seems to morph from the spiritual chastisement to the physical.
So the great war may break out in the second half of the twentieth century. It could very well refer to the Cold War something which did cause much terror and break out in the second part of the twentieth century and which may not have ended despite impressions, something which Mr Putin may ultimately end up punishing the west which he has a dislike for (remember Sr Aiello's prophecy of Russia's armies invading). The Cold War may soon heat up.
Cheers Carol,
Why would Fr Villa leave a false secret to be revealed post death, it doesn't make sense. Maybe Heaven is revealing it at the last gasps. So yes, fireballs from Heaven hit the ocean, this would cause the mass flooding referred at Fulda which JPII was fully aware of. Clearly oceans turning to steam wouldn't be a nuclear attack as the ocean wouldn't be bombarded with nukes; how could nuclear bombs turn except select parts of the ocean to steam and cause flooding. So in terms of physical chastisements there is first a war (see all Fatima comments previous), then the Great Chastisement from Heaven itself, it makes so much sense and satisfies several chief prophecies. I think then Cardinal Ratzinger said the Third Secret referred to things all revealed in other major apparitions and Scripture.
All that is revealed here is almost a perfect synthesis of the major points of approved apparitions/visionaries such as Blessed Aiello and presented in a neat logical manner. You have VII as Hannah mentions, Satan infiltrating the Church and the apostasy starting at the top. Cardinals against Cardinals, and Bishops against Bishops. Then a war breaking out followed by/interrupted by a massive chastisement from Heaven and the sins of mankind are put paid to. The power of God will be shown and felt by all the smug imbecile atheists, historic revisionists and Church bashers. They have been celebrating the decline of the Catholic Church and cherish every scandal but don't realise what a disaster it means for the world and the wrath coming their way. Then finally there is a return to Catholic civilization and sanity as foretold in so many apparitions starting from Quito a few hundred years back. Laser point precision.
btw from what I read Fr Villa's book stopped Paul VI from being beatified.
"I think that the reason this was not revealed earlier could be that the Vatican hierarchy did not want anyone to know that Satan was controlling many events at the top, of course..."
Absolute, spot on, concurred.
That is a scandal beyond belief and everyone would have been awaiting to see the pope that would change the face of the Church and known Satan had either possessed or had great control over him. Lefebvre may have not gone solo with De Castro Mayer and we wouldn't have had the apostasy now witnessed. Hence it was to be revealed in 1960 as per Heaven's wishes. Akita was the watered down version re the Church issues which Heaven gave to provide clues knowing churchmen wouldn't allow anything more specific and scandalous to see the light of day. So with God's grace we were told the work of the devil would infiltrate the Church.
Many thanks for providing all this info Carol.
Like Hannah, the possibility of VII comes to mind for a chastisement, facilitating the Great Apostasy.
Also, wasn't there a claim that a potential nuclear conflicts around the late 1980s was averted by the partial consecration by JPII?
My third musing is the global Jihad launched by Muslims as both terror, and perhaps the "soldiers" in the published third secret who kill the bishop in white.
Sherry
Thank you Hannah and Sherry for your great insights as well. I also just want to mention that I forwarded this info to some traditionally minded Catholic people on the web who normally take a great interest in this topic and one of only two people who responded with interest was Emmett. Thank you Emmett! It makes me wonder why the others ignored it....I think that they would at least want to get a conversation started and ask questions?
Carol
If indeed there is a physical war interrupted/followed by a chastisement (70 hours of fireballs as Blessed Aiello envisioned), then maybe Heaven is giving us foresight of when the 3 days of darkness will begin so we can prepare - eg when a couple of nukes get fired off, Rome gets sacked.
Mark W,
I salute you. I am 48 years old and have also done a lot of research on this stuff over the last 25 years. What you have said, I would have said, virtually word for word.
"I’ve also had a very strong inclination towards 2017, but an equally strong feeling that we would start the process before that"
Indeed...I see 2017 as the culmination, probably in October. The 1260 days brings us back to May 2014, but it would be advisable to be prepared sooner than that.
Of course, we may be wrong, but I am seeing a LOT of people converging on the 2017 time frame. The prophecies of Sr. Jeanne are a major confirmation as well.
Thanks, Mark, for taking the time to lay all of this out for everyone...and also, thanks to you, Emmett for making so many connections and unearthing so many relevant prophecies!
Jamey,
Glad I could be of help.
Just one question. Who is this Pope under the complete control of Satan? That's what I want to know.
Thanks for the insights, Jamey!
God bless!
~Hannah
The discussion about Divine Mercy...
I was looking through the list of homilies at audiosancto.org yesterday and I saw a homily that had 40 "likes." Now I know why.
Wow! A traditional priest talks about the gift given on Divine Mercy Sunday (the Sunday after Easter). The homily is a beautiful reminder.
This gift is even better than a plenary indulgence and less conditions, especially one that is difficult to meet. Jesus is our "mendicant love", He knew the times we would be living in. On this one day, our soul is returned to the state it was on the day of our Baptism!
The sermon is listed under Christology. The first part of the homily concerns indulgences. At 9:09, Father begins to explain the DM gift.
http://www.audiosancto.org/sermon/20040418-Holy-Sanctuary-in-the-Divine-Mercy-of-God.html
Mary
Jamey, Jamey, Jamey, who is this Pope under complete control of Satan? Excellent question? Jamey, first of all Our Lady of All Nations is approved, call the Vatican, instead of relying on google. And as far as the statement "once was called Mary" it is incredibly appropriate. Even Dr. Richard L. Russell explains it beautifully. Pope Benedict was once called Joseph. Well, today Mary is transformed from the young girl called Mary, to our present Blessed Mother. I don't understand why you find this so comical. In fact, Jamey, you sound more and more like MDM. The truth is Our Lady is Co-redemptrix, mediatrix. Declaring the this Marian dogma would be a gift of enormous graces to our world today. As was the dogma of the Immaculate Conception. How can anyone that calls himself Catholic deny this? Our Lady of All Nations is an invitation to believe and finally prevent the enemies of religion from attaining the goal they have so brazenly proclaimed to the world. You believe in Aiello's doom and gloom, well, declaring the 5th dogma may help subside the chastisement. Why resist? Why not aid the Church for the good of souls? All diligence should be exercised to prevent the ravages of an anti-God campaign, but by declaring the dogma, where's the harm? And I joined Emmett's journey in order to help those like you to see the light. Emmett's website is marvelous. A debate is definitely needed on all aspects of our religion, including Revelations. But unveiling the Apocalypse, again cannot be done without Our Blessed Mother's help. So, listen to a professional. A guy who used to be a Protestant and coverted to Catholicism with the help of Our Lady of All Nations. www.youtube.com/watch?v=qqIiXLpBuA This is really quite helpful.
Anonymous,
"And as far as the statement "once was called Mary" it is incredibly appropriate."
Personally, I find the phrase "who once was Mary" very bizarre. Of course she's the Blessed Mother. She is still Mary.
"In fact, Jamey, you sound more and more like MDM."
What is that supposed to mean? That has nothing to do with this discussion. That woman is misleading people. Apparently people are so obsessed with that fairy tale of hers they are willing to call the Vicar of Christ the false prophet. I'm sorry, it's just plain sick. Why are you comparing her to Jamey?
God bless!
~Hannah
Not at all bizarre. Read Luke 1:28. Archangel Gabriel used the term "Full of Grace" when addressing Mary. Notice Gabriel does not call her by her name Mary. This new name for Mary indicates a change in her status in life. It's that simple. And Our Lady of All Nations, explains her collaboration with the whole work her Son was to accomplish through her faith and obedience. It's beautiful and so Catholic! So many Saints agree. St. Francis Xavier Cabrini calls the Blessed Virgin the "New Eve, true Mother of the Living" who was "chosen by God to become the Co-redemptrix of the human race." So many others like St Maximillian Colbe, St Theresa Benedicta, ST Leopold Mandi, Padre Pio, St John Bosco, Blessed Bartolo Longo, John Paul II etc...all agree. In fact, they all said it is a duty and obligation to believe in both Mary Co-redemptrix and Mary of the Ecumenical movement. For it is precisely the role of Mary Co-redemptrix that the reunion of Christians will occur. Read Dr Mark Miravalle - Prof of Theology and Mariology at the Franciscan Univ of Steubenville. He is devoted to this apparition. Read about the apparition in Lima, Phillipines in Sept 12, 1948. This same Virgin appeared to a Carmelite monastery. Our Lady Mary Mediatrix of All Graces is a gift. MDM takes every opportunity to speak ill of our Blessed Pope. It would do Jamey good, if he were to offer to the Co-redemptrix a special grace to change his disdain towards John Paul II. It would help him understand that "the humble Mary of Nazareth departs from the natural order of being as a daughter of Adam and Eve, and accepts her predestination by God to become the spiritual Mother of all people's." All for Jesus through Mary. God Bless.
I found interesting the article by Dr. Adessa in regards to the third secret of Fatima, which supposedly related to Akita as well. Since both apparitions are recognized by the Church, at first I was concerned that the prophetic part in relation to the 20th century did not happen (unless you count the Cold War as the war described), the fire did not fall and the oceans turned to steam. It would appear to be a failed prophecy until I received an inspiration that prophecy does not necessarily have to be set in stone, but is rather conditional on free will. Obviously, the chastisement was apparently delayed by the Lord's will, in which He was satisfied enough to delay the chastisement (most likely the consecration). There is actually biblical precedent for the Lord delaying or deferring punishment such as at Ninevah with Jonah. That part of chastisement can still happen - perhaps by 2017 as Sr. Royer mentioned. However, we must not live as the world or era will end, for no man or angel knows the day of Jesus' return, but only the Father.
I also found interesting that the date someone mentioned earlier of November 28th may be quite significant. Apparently, on Nov 28, 1922, Pope Benedict XV had a briefing to nominate 3 delegations in Rome, Spain and Belgium for the matter of defining the 5th Marian dogma.
Perhaps the great war that was going to break out in the second part of the 20th century referred to the attack on Gods law and life itself, the legalisation of abortion. In some countries 1 in 2 women abort a child one way or another.
anon 17.21 you are a straw man specialist please don't misrepresent me anymore. Thanks.
Good point, Jamey. I've always had a tendency to read texts too literally so this blog and your fabulous comments have provided rich material on which to contemplate.
Sherry
KP,
In order to believe your Fatima conspiracy theory, one would have to believe that Sister Lucia, Father Robert Fox, Archbishop Bertone, Cardinal Ratzinger, Sister Mary of Bethlehem, John Paul II and countless others were either liars, forgers, or engaged in a massive conspiracy.
And, yes, the Vatican has released the full text of the Third Secret online. To say otherwise is to accuse the Vatican and Cardinal Ratzinger of lying.
While you are correct that Sacred Scripture uses temporal terms to describe eternity, it is also true that eternity is an entirely separate concept from a "period" or an "era."
A "period of peace" is quite possible and is sound Catholic teaching. For instance, on page 1140 in Volume II of the sixth printing (1952) the book (Teachings of the Catholic Church: a summary of Catholic Doctrine, arranged and edited by Canon George D. Smith D.D., Ph.D.) we find the following statement:
"...it is NOT at all certain that there MAY NOT BE a prolonged PERIOD of Triumphant Christianity before the end...The coming of Christ in the second Advent - the Parousia, as it is called technically - in orthodox Christianity is the consummation of all things, THE END OF HISTORY. If BEFORE that final end there is to be a PERIOD, more or less prolonged, of triumphant sanctity, such a result will be brought about, NOT by the apparition of the Person of Christ in Majesty but by the operation of those powers of sanctification which are now at work, the Holy Ghost and the Sacraments of the Church...The Catholic Church has full confidence in the present order of supernatural life, and if she sighs for the return of her Christ it is not because she despairs of the work he has done, but because she desires to see that work made manifest to all men, that it may appear what wondrous things Christ accomplished for man before his Ascension into heaven."
Now, regarding you comments on Our Lady of All Nations, the Vatican document you cited as evidence that Our Lady of All Nations is not approved is dated May 1974.
You have cherrypicked the facts to suit your own conclusion. Here are all the facts regarding Our Lady of All Nations, with the 1974 document in the proper context:
7 May 1956 - Bishop of Haarlem finds no evidence of the supernatural nature of the apparitions, and prohibits public veneration.
2 March 1957 - Bishop of Haarlem confirms this decision with consent of the Holy Office (13 March 1957).
24 May 1972 - Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, responding to a letter of 29 March from the Bishop, re-affirms its decision.
27 June 1974 - CDF affirms its earlier decision, after a deeper investigation, inviting the faithful to discontinue all forms propaganda with regard to these alleged apparitions and revelations.
31 May 2002 - Bishop Punt declares the apparitions to be of supernatural origin.
July 2005 - The Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith requests "that the words who once was Mary be left out of the prayer of the Lady of All Nations out of consideration for those who do not understand this phrase." The ending of the prayer is now to say: “May the Lady of All Nations, the Blessed Virgin Mary, be our Advocate.”
http://www.ewtn.com/expert/expertfaqframe.asp
Hannah said: "Who is this Pope under the complete control of Satan?"
Hannah now that I have time to answer your question. I think it is more likely the popes have been hit by a massive wave of diabolical disorientation, and this is the infiltration. They are not alone. The level of spiritual warfare waged has seen most lose their heads and completely apostatise at some point, who in saner times would have been preserved by the relative pervasiveness of sound philosophies and lifestyles available. I think a small portion of a very tiny fraction have been completely preserved through the mayhem and haven't gone to live in a den of habitual sin. So some recent popes have been either diabolically stunned, caught the spirit of this world or just are not well formed : St Pius X said any priest not trained in the scholastics of St Thomas Aquinas were basically not formed at all and this is the crux of the problem. Following from this Hell for example has become a dirty word because of the lack of formation and understanding of it and divine justice, something rarely mentioned in the last 50 years if at all in a traditional manner from the highest level. A soft theology leads to a huge spiritual abyss as one can no longer read and accept the gospels or traditional teaching at face value anymore which can be tough for the modern mind. I also believe the theory of evolution which gained so much momentum with some of those fraudulent "fossils" such as Piltdown Man, nebraska man, Haeckels drawings, etc made people question how much of our religion is unchanging over time and confidence in the classical metaphysics and understanding eroded. So many start to seek answers from the likes of Teilhard de Chardin to make sense of matters.
Remember Jesus telling St Peter "Get away from me Satan", essentially we can be receiving spiritual impulses from the dark side (which all of us are subject to with the Fall) and if not careful act on them. Those impulses can be very subtle and the bombardment so great given the current spiritual onslaught; given the lack of a solid formation in Thomism mentioned above it is easy for those diabolical impulses to infiltrate ones mind and thats what I think has happened.
Regarding Malachi Martin's saying that satan would completely possess a pope John Salza thinks some of the rituals JPII engaged in the mid 80's may have possibly led to him being completely taken over. Personally I am not sure, I don't have enough information but I think he probably opened himself up to disorientation. I reject that he was an infiltrator (ie Mason) and personally believe he would have copped a bullet for preaching what he thought the truth. The attempt in 1981 didn't stop him from fronting a crowd (as a kid I saw him in 1986 when he came to Perth!) and he tried to be a positive in the world.
Ultimately I think there is quite a difference between Satan being in full control of a pope vs launching stunning disorienting attacks which I think this alleged Third Secret connects to. Also remember satan's presence in the Vatican is great in the past half century so there is a formidable foe. Hence Our Lady of Akita: "Pray for the Pope".
Sherry thanks for your kind comments, I think you are correct and most prophecy should be taken literally otherwise it is easy to spiritualise anything to a certain point of view.
KP I would ignore Miltonics latest comment re the Consecration, this is a tactic he has used before on other posts. He will launch a comment completely ignoring any relevant information you have provided that is contra to his argument as though it wasn't made, and just restates the same thing again and again.
"Regarding Malachi Martin's saying that satan would completely possess a pope John Salza thinks some of the rituals JPII engaged in the mid 80's may have possibly led to him being completely taken over. Personally I am not sure, I don't have enough information but I think he probably opened himself up to disorientation."
Jamie Really? C'mon man.
Jamey, nobody is misrepresenting you. And Miltonics is correct. The dates he gave are accurate. Why are you misrepresenting Miltonics? Prophecy is not always literal. The 3 days of Darkness can very well be taken spiritually. Prophecy is a warning, and we are given graces of opportunities to change the course of events. Whereas, prediction is different. Predictions will happen, and should be taken literally. There is a difference. And of course, it all depends on who is predicting. You prefer believing Malachi Martin over an apparition that has been approved? You do sound like MDM, sorry. Where in the Bible does one learn of a Pope being totally possessed as Martin allegedly accuses? Get real.
Jamey - It's time to move on from this. Malachi Martin is VERY far from an unimpeachable source. There are loads of things wrong with his testimony, and only a couple of things that were right.
The statement itself shows problems in the area of demonology. For a demon to be in full control of an individual requires that the individual give consent of the will. In such a case, it would be impossible for anyone to notice the difference.
For it to be a case of demonic oppression would cause other issues. A case of demonic obsession would raise different issues. All of which would make an impending canonization dicey at best.
I don't want to get into other details. Trust me, this is not a subject to be discussed lightly. It's more likely that those around JPII were working for the darkness, but without knowing the details, you should walk away from this now.
Malachi Martin is not a solid source.
For those of you who think disbolical disorientation is an impossibility at the top I think you are either extremely naive or refuse to study history. The Church has had popes that have done damage to the church either by their wickedness or by gross negligence. Please take a look at this:
http://www.chiesaviva.com/paoloVI%20beatoin.pdf
Carol
Understanding Church history on anti-pope's, and accusing JP II of demonic possession is quite a stretch. The battle between Popes and emperors for ultimate supremacy continued for centuries. An antipope is a person claiming to be Pope who was not duly elected. And we had plenty of those in history. These impostors caused the scandals of the Western Schism in the 3rd and mid 15th century. JP II, as Benedict and Francis were legally elected by the College of Cardinals. There was no defiance of proper Church authority here. All were lawfully elected Pope's. And yes, Pope's are fallible human beings, but to say JP II was possessed is actually harmful to the Church. When was JP II ever against the Magisterium? And as for Jeanne Le Royer's prediction that a bad priest will do much harm to the Church, well, Padre Maciel of Regnum Christi does fit this bill quite nicely. Now, this priest was possessed, but not JP II. Let's please end this MDM discussion of a false pope existing. If there is to be a false pope in the future, we certainly haven't met him.
For the record I do not believe in MDM prophecies or that JP ii was possessed. I shared the chiesa viva link on Paul Vi above to show that Satan was probably influencing his pontificate in some way, thus the diabolical disorientation of the world SR Lucy talked about. At the very least many of his actions were influenced by wicked men surrounding him. And I am not saying that Paul VI was an antipope but I think it is very probable that he was influenced by Satan in many of his decisions, which is actually a danger for each of us!
http://www.chiesaviva.com/paoloVI%20beatoin.pdf
Carol
Here is the entire book by Father Villa for free on PDF. For the record I do not agree with the sedevacantist position on the site below. I am just sharing the link for those who are interested in reading the book.
http://www.huttongibson.com/PDFs/Paul-VI-Beatified-Book.pdf
Carol
Jamey,
Thanks for the answer! You make very good points.
Now, I want to ask your opinion on something else. In various places (including Malachi Martin), I've seen talk on an enthronement of Satan in the Vatican in 1963. Whether it's conspiracy or not, I don't know.
http://padrepioandchiesaviva.com/uploads/Satana_in._Vaticano_en_OK-final.pdf
I wasn't alive when all of this was taking place. I just want the truth on everything. This is hard to wrap my mind around, to be honest. Is something such as this possible? Is it even possible that the Devil was enthroned in the Vatican? Maybe I'm engaged in conspiracy on this one...
It really hurts me to see that the Church is in such a crisis...
Pope St. Pius X, ora pro nobis.
Thanks.
God bless!
~Hannah
Hannah - I think from my posts you can see that I've researched a lot of the history of these questions. I tried to apply the principals of historical research to these questions, rather than follow conspiracy theories.
There's no solid evidence that this enthronement happened. (But then, this isn't the kind of thing for which you'd expect to get solid evidence.) Malachi Martin is the only voice that's ever been identified as making this claim. It's likely that there were other witnesses, and there's supposedly a victim from the 1957 event, but they have never come forward.
Consider also that Martin made most of his direct claims on a radio show dedicated to UFO's.
My degree is in history. I've been trained to judge source material. Malachi Martin is not credible. He is fascinating, articulate, and compelling in many ways, but that does not validate his accusations. You can't get a solid second source on any of his material. In the end, he may turn out to be right, but there's no evidence as of today.
You're looking down a very dark and dirty path. If you choose to go down it, it could well challenge your faith more than you may realize. It will twist and turn in many different directions, and take you down side paths that will make your soul feel filthy. I know of at least one person that started the research and ended up leaving the Church because he couldn't stomach the filth.
Unless you feel God Himself calling you to go there, avoid this subject.
I understand why people are so interested in how this came about, and the history of how the Church and our culture got where it is today. I really do. But people, seriously, think about how your spending your time and talent if you really dive into this.
We're talking - on this blog and in this combox - about the end of the world and the Second Coming of Christ. Only the Second Coming? No big deal.
We are at war with an adversary that will destroy you if given half a chance. They will offer no mercy, they will feel no sense of compassion, they will not offer you the opportunity to lay down arms and surrender. If Emmett or Stephen are right, then we're playing with live ammunition and this is no game!
In this environment, consider on thing: There are 7 billion souls on this world. If the Second Coming were tomorrow, how many of those souls would fall? Have we, each of us, done everything we can - ever spiritual act of mercy - for those 7 billion souls?
Yet here we are looking at which pope might have been bad, or which bishop might have done something 50 years ago. Or we argue about why our own personal favorite private revelation is necessary for belief (I've actually had someone tell me that belief in Garabandal was necessary for salvation). We go over and over these things, while so many souls are hanging in the balance.
Personally, I think it's one thing to look at the future and try to figure out how things will play out. You then have a leg-up on being able to explain to people and help them find their way when things get hard. But to spend more than a passing moment on the past is to risk those 7 billion souls.
Do as God says. Follow Mary's advice. Let the past bury itself. Be a spiritual paratrooper - nobody gets left behind, everybody goes home.
Thanks for your comments, Mark.
You make good points.
I will never leave the Church. The Church is my life and I pray for the Church and her purification every day.
I think from my posts you can see that I've researched a lot of the history of these questions. I tried to apply the principals of historical research to these questions, rather than follow conspiracy theories."
I understand what you've said and I think what you say is important.
"Yet here we are looking at which pope might have been bad, or which bishop might have done something 50 years ago."
I'm not exactly trying to do that. I'm just asking questions. I'm not judging any Holy Father, Bishop, or Priest.
It's also important to pray for the souls of these Bishops and Priests. Only God knows how much damage certain Bishops and Priests have done to the Church. We can't doubt that some have done evil. We all know that. They have so much to account for which makes me shdder thinking about it. Now, I'm not dwelling on the sins of the Clergy. My point is praying for the souls of all the Clergy. Read what Our Lady of LaSalette says. I always tell people to pray for the Clergy. It's the one thing I'm passionate about. Praying for Priests. I consider it vitally important. So should we all.
God bless!
~Hannah
Franco Adessa seems to have sedevacantist leanings - he believes Siri was elected pope twice, so a big red flag. He wrote a book on Fr Villa where Fr Villa's life makes James Bond's look bland in comparison.
Anon, Mark W, etc I didn't say I definitely believed in Malachi Martin and re a pope being fully controlled by Satan. In fact I said I didn't know and Salza wasn't certain either. What I do think is the Pope isn't immune to diabolical attack, and JPII did things that were downright dangerous in terms of spiritual warfare. His papacy left the Church in a shambolic situation which many seem to ignore or attribute to simply everyone else around him so all this makes people ask obvious questions. He appointed radicals to important positions such as Kasper who told Jews they dont need to convert and an Orthodox bishop that he didn't need to convert when he in fact wanted to! Can you imagine St Pius X kissing the Koran? That is a massive scandal and didn't happen by mistake. These things eroded Catholicism as we understand it. Orthodox priests copped a smashing in his papacy. His theology in many areas was a profound rupture from the past. Doubts about a Beatification by Fr Patrick dela Roque highlights the ruptures which are well documented and based on fact which I don't think Mr Adessa's work is. Fr Thomas Doyle a reliable character, who tried alerting the Vatican on the sex abuse said JPII was aware of the claims of the sex scandals and that "John Paul should be the patron saint of looking the other way." Patrick Madrid himself said he has no idea how JPII couldn't have been aware of what was going on. There were novelties and innovations aplenty. However yes I don't have the full information and JPII did good too if its God's will he will be canonized in December.
Anon another straw man - please point out where I disagree with Miltonic on the dates he provided?
I do refer to Malachi Martin at times because as you say Mark he was an enigma and was absolute on point with some stuff before it happened/ and what has transpired. Because we didn't get the Third Secret in 1960 as Heaven's wishes we are groping in the dark trying to understand what has happened. I agree there is a point where we have to get on and live life and prayer.
Hannah nicely said in your last comment and I would avoid that chiesaviva website after a cursory glance. There has been some definite satanism in the church though - John Hepworth himself said the priests who raped him often chanted satanic blasphemic phrases.
Jamey,
"Hannah nicely said in your last comment and I would avoid that chiesaviva website after a cursory glance."
Thanks and I'll avoid it. I was led their by articles from here...
"There has been some definite satanism in the church though - John Hepworth himself said the priests who raped him often chanted satanic blasphemic phrases."
And people wonder why I plead for prayers for the Priests. I understand that the Priests have been under attack all these years and still are. It struck me after I was baptized. Suddenly, I had this intense desire to pray for Priests, to love Priests, to help Priests in any way I cna. They are under attack from the world, the flesh and the Devil. I offer my prayers and sacrifices for Priests.
Here is what Our Lady says describing the times we are living in. Everyone should read it carefully.
The Sacrament of Holy Orders will be ridiculed, oppressed, and despised, for in this Sacrament, the Church of God and even God Himself is scorned and despised since He is represented in His priests. The Devil will try to persecute the ministers of the Lord in every possible way; he will labor with cruel and subtle astuteness to deviate them from the spirit of their vocation and will corrupt many of them. These depraved priests, who will scandalise the Christian people, will make the hatred of bad Catholics and the enemies of the Roman Catholic
and Apostolic Church fall upon all priests.
In this epoch, the Secular Clergy will be far removed from its ideal, because the Priests will be careless in their sacred duties. Lacking the divine compass, they will stray from the road traced by God for the priestly ministry and they will become attached to wealth and riches, which they will unduly strive to obtain. [Pope Francis is attacking this head on! Just recently he said Priests shouldn't drive fancy cars...]
How the Church will suffer on that occasion the dark night of the lack of a Prelate and Father to watch over them with paternal love, gentleness, strength, and prudence. Many priests will lose their spirit, placing their souls in great danger. Pray insistently without tiring and weep with bitter tears in the secrecy of your heart, imploring our Celestial Father that, for love of the Eucharistic Heart of my Most Holy Son and His Precious Blood shed with such generosity and by the profound bitterness and sufferings of His cruel Passion and Death, He might take pity on His Ministers and quickly bring to an end those ominous times, sending to this Church the Prelate that will restore the spirit of its Priests. My Most Holy Son and I will love this most favored son with a love of predilection, and we shall gift him with a rare capacity, a humility of heart, a docility to divine inspiration, the strength to defend the rights of the Church, and a tender and compassionate heart, so that, like another Christ, he will assist the great and the small, without despising the more unfortunate
souls who ask him for light and counsel in their doubts and hardships. With divine suavity, he will guide souls consecrated to the service of God in the cloisters, making light the yoke of the Lord, Who said,
“My yoke is sweet, and my burden light”. [I don't know if it's just me but some of that seems to describe Pope Francis...]
~Hannah
Hannah - I wasn't talking about you in particular. In fact, I had someone else in mind, to be perfectly honest. It's just a trend I've seen over the years.
Have you considered that you might have a vocation?
http://benedictinesofmary.org/content/about-ephesus
[Continued]
Words of Jesus to Mother Marianne:
"Now, my spouse, in the few months of exile that remain to you, labor untiringly for the perfection of My priests and religious persons. In union with My infinite merits and those of My Immaculate Mother and yours, offer all that you do - even to your least breath- for this. I am greatly pleased by religious souls who take upon themselves the sublime task of sanctifying the Clergy through their prayers, sacrifices, and penances. In all times I will choose such souls so that, uniting themselves to Me, they will labor, pray and suffer to attain of this most noble end, and a special glory will await them in Heaven."
When I first heard about this Apparition, it opened my eyes. It's all very interesting.
I want to be one of those souls..
Anyway, just wanted to share.
God bless!
~Hannah
"Hannah - I wasn't talking about you in particular. In fact, I had someone else in mind, to be perfectly honest. It's just a trend I've seen over the years."
I see. It's fine.
Have you considered that you might have a vocation?
Thanks for the link. I've heard of them. Truly amazing order.
I don't know what I'm going to do, to be honest. In God's time he'll show me...
God bless!
~Hannah
Folks - to declare JPII "possessed" is to declare Jesus a liar when He said the gates of Hell will not prevail against the rock of Peter. I agree with the commentator to be careful of this path, that it will confuse you. I definitely got confused, and decided that this is the Lord's problem, and He will take care of everything. Pope Francis is a good holy Pope, and he will do what God wills. It is good and "fun" to debate this stuff, but be careful not to let it snare you. Only God knows the future. God Bless.
Jamey,
The following are documented facts:
1. Russia was properly Consecrated in 1984.
2. Sister Lucia confirmed that Russia was properly Consecrated in 1984.
3. A "period of peace" was promised at Fatima. The term "period of peace" is not a mistranslation nor does it refer to the Second Coming.
4. Our Lady of All Nations is an approved apparition. It was approved in 2002. Until the Vatican overrules the 2002 decision by the local bishop, the local bishop's decision will stand.
Now, if you are going to contest any of the above facts (which I have thoroughly documented here on this thread) then you do so with your own documents and facts, not the conspiracy theories and slander of Bob Sungenis and Father Gruner.
"JPII did things that were downright dangerous in terms of spiritual warfare. His papacy left the Church in a shambolic situation which many seem to ignore or attribute to simply everyone else around him so all this makes people ask obvious questions. He appointed radicals to important positions such as Kasper who told Jews they dont need to convert and an Orthodox bishop that he didn't need to convert when he in fact wanted to! Can you imagine St Pius X kissing the Koran? That is a massive scandal and didn't happen by mistake. These things eroded Catholicism as we understand it. Orthodox priests copped a smashing in his papacy. His theology in many areas was a profound rupture from the past. Doubts about a Beatification by Fr Patrick dela Roque highlights the ruptures which are well documented and based on fact which I don't think Mr Adessa's work is. Fr Thomas Doyle a reliable character, who tried alerting the Vatican on the sex abuse said JPII was aware of the claims of the sex scandals and that "John Paul should be the patron saint of looking the other way."
" I am not saying that Paul VI was an antipope but I think it is very probable that he was influenced by Satan in many of his decisions, which is actually a danger for each of us!"
Sorry. Calling you out. Statements like these are offensive to Catholics.
Tom
Mark W,
I have to disagree with your comment on wasting time thinking about the past. If anything it is more important to study the past than to speculate on the future because we can learn so much from both the mistakes and sins AND the wisdom and virtuous acts of those who have preceded us. This wisdom can also help us be watchful in the future so we are not deceived. For example Fulton Sheen's quote is helpful in this respect.
"[Satan] will set up a counterchurch which will be the ape of the [Catholic] Church. . . . It will have all the notes and characteristics of the Church, but in reverse and emptied of its divine content."
This is a warning from the past for the future.
Carol
Tom,
I understand why pointing out such facts as John Paul II kissed the Koran is disturbing but isn't the fact that he did such a thing the most offensive to a Catholic mind and heart? Popes are human beings, saints and sinners like all of us aren't they? Even St. Peter sinned and made mistakes which both Christ, "get behind me Satan!" and St Paul called him out on for, and St Peter ultimately suffered a glorious martyrdom and was still the rock!
Carol
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